Compensation for delayed flights Discussion Area

ian41

Emma2012 wrote: »

I truly hope some one more knowledgeable than myself can help and give me some advice regarding my delayed flight which I have been pursuing compensation for since the event in October 2011.

Basically all I really need to know is:
a) Do I officially have any grounds to stand on regarding compensation and
b) If so, how do I go about doing this?

I understand all flights within the EU are covered by CAA to claim compensation through however in this case I need to contact Sri Lanka directly. I have found their website for 'Civil Aviation Authority of Sri Lanka' however it details no information on where to go to make a claim?

Please Note: In the airport the final comment we had from a staff member of Sri Lanka airlines was that the flight was held up in Paris which is why it was delayed.

Sorry for the long thread, looking forward to hearing from you in anticipation.

Could you advise

(a) what your exact routing was for this whole trip, starting at the beginning e.g 2/10/11 LHR>CMB Gulf Air; etc etc
(b) where you bought your tickets - e.g. online with UK agency, English ABTA travel agent; airline website?
(c) how did you pay for them - credit card or debit card?
(d) why was your original ticket to Bali not accepted for your subsequent flight?
(e) in which country do you live and are you in that country now?

I am sorry to tell you that it is extremely unlikely that any compensation is due and payable unless there are clauses in the T & Cs of Sri Lanka Airlines.

The EU is unusual in having consumer protection for air travellers as in EC Reg 261/2004 and any compensation payments or reimbursement of expenses under this reg are not paid by the CAA but by the airlines. Without looking, I would doubt that the Sri Lankan CAA would be of any help as they can only direct you to the airline.

However, believe that you might be using the word "compensation" loosely. Please do not write any further letters asking for compensation - it raises the hackles within airlines. What you mean I believe is a reimbursement of the additional costs incurred - which appear to be a replacement flight to Bali and an additional hotel night in Kuala Lumpur? Is this correct? If so how much is at stake?

Perhaps you can give specific answers and I will see if there is anything that can be done.

mac54

Hi all, looking for some help and advice please.
Returning from a cruise in the Caribbean we were delayed by nearly 52 hours. Our flight was scheduled to depart at 17:00 hrs local time, on 17th December 2011. We eventually departed at 20:36 on 19th Dec.

The flight home was TCX373 from Bridgetown Barbados.
We booked the holiday through Cruisedeals. It was a package deal with P and O cruises and they allocated the flights with Thomas cook. I presume that I deal with P and O and all paperwork should go to them. Is that correct?


Whilst waiting to disembark the vessel we were informed that there was a problem with our flight and that we would be transferred to a hotel for the night.
Paperwork from P and O obtained from reception onboard stated, “further to the earlier broadcast advising that it has been necessary for your air carrier, Thomas Cook, to substitute an unavailable aircraft which would result in a later flight please find below details of arrangements that have been put in place to make your delay as comfortable as possible”
It went on to say flight number would remain the same, departure time now planned to be approx 09:15 hrs Sunday 18th. “Please note these times are subject to change.”


The aircraft was now a Boeing 767 instead of an Airbus A330.


On Sunday 18th we were transported to the airport and boarded the plane and taxied for takeoff. The pilot then announced we had a problem with a warning light and they were trying to fix it. We then returned to the stand. After approximately 4 hours we were informed that the fault had been fixed, but we could not fly as we could not reach Manchester without the crew going over their hours. (The pilot joked we could reach Ireland before their hours ran out.) We then had to leave the aircraft and wait in the airport for a number of hours whilst hotel rooms were again allocated.
(In a written reply to me from P and O dated 20th January they state “On the morning of 18th December passengers were duly transported to the airport as arranged and I understand that once all of the passengers had boarded the aircraft a technical fault was discovered. This was duly rectified, but unfortunately a further issue was identified which would require a part to be sourced and sent to Barbados.” ...“As the part had to be sourced from another country, Thomas Cook made the decision to offload all the hold luggage and make arrangements for overnight accommodation for our passengers, in case the fault could not be fixed within a reasonable time”)


On Monday 19th December we were again transported back to the airport, for a revised departure time of 10:30. After checking in again we were informed that there was another fault and that a part had to be flown in from Miami. This part would not arrive until 14:30 hrs. Paperwork given to us at approx 12:00 stated “As you are aware your revised time of departure was 10:30 local time when the aircraft was expected to be fully operational. However obtaining the spare part has taken longer than originally anticipated, therefore your new estimated time of departure will now be 17:30 local time.” It then went on to detail arrangements for passengers to be taken from the airport and be supplied with food, drink and entertainment. Passengers who wished to remain at the airport could collect meal vouchers.


There was a duty manager wearing a Thomas cook Hi-Vis vest and I requested the letter detailing the EC regulation 261/2004 for flight delay. She replied that she had worked in the airline industry for over 20 years and that she had never heard of it.



On leaving the aircraft at Manchester we were handed a Thomas Cook headed letter dated 17th December, apologising for the delay and saying “this was due to an unforeseen operationally significant defect which required rectification prior to further flight.” It then lists scheduled and actual departure times so passengers can claim from their insurance. On the reverse is the 261/2004 regulation printed in very light ink. I didn’t even see it till I got home and was wearing my glasses.


Following an initial email complaint, Thomas Cooks written reply states “Furthermore, whilst I appreciate that your flight was affected by a series of different issues that all impacted on the departure time, I would like to verify that only the initial problems would be recorded on the insurance letter”


P and O in their letter of 20th January 2012 are denying my request for compensation under the EU rules, claiming this is only for cancelled flights. For delayed flights they are obliged to provide meals, refreshment and communication facilities.


I understand that a decision is awaited from the ECJ on delays.



I appreciate this is a lengthy posting, but I have tried to include all relevant details. If more information is required please ask.



Many thanks. Mac54

As a side note, and probably totally irrelevant, the aircraft for the flight out (Manchester to Barbados) was ‘downgraded’ a couple of weeks before we were due to fly, due to maintenance issues. (I cannot find a copy of this letter)

ian41

mac54 wrote: »

I presume that I deal with P and O and all paperwork should go to them. Is that correct?

No. If you are referring to EC Reg 261/2004, your claim is directly against Thomas Cook as they were the operating air carrier.

However, there is currently a "stay" in England and Wales regarding legal action for compensation payments for long delays (over 3 hours), pending "clarification" by the ECJ. Until this is handed down, all UK based airlines (as well as some but not all others flying out of the UK) are refusing to consider compensation claims for long flight delays including yours at Euro600 per passenger.

So you need to understand that Thomas Cook will not compensate you for a long delay until the ECJ ruling (favourable to passengers) is handed down. Even then they can claim "extraordinary circumstances" but they have to prove this.

To my mind, you need to tackle Thomas Cook now to establish whether or not they have an "extraordinary circumstance" defence. If you are convinced that they can prove that their defence is sound and exceeds the high standards required under Wallentin-Hermann and Sturgeon, then the ECJ ruling becomes irrelevant to you and you get on with your life. If they cannot prove this, then you have the basis for a claim against Thomas Cook, assuming the ECJ ruling is handed down in favour of delayed passengers.

I suggest that your email to Thomas Cook should include the following:

"Should you wish to claim a defence of extraordinary circumstances, I ask you to submit proof to me that meets or exceeds the very high standards set out by the ECJ in both the Wallentin-Hermann and Sturgeon rulings dated 22/12/2008 and 19/11/2009 respectively. In this context, it is insufficient to merely claim extraordinary circumstances, as the Regulation requires you to prove it and I would like to examine the robustness of such evidence."

If you fail to provide me with answers or co-operate with me fully, I must also draw your attention to the relevant Practice Direction concerning pre-action conduct prior to court proceedings. If necessary, I will produce copies of our correspondence to the Court at the appropriate time."

As background for you, the Sturgeon judgment was important because it said that long delays could be as inconvenient as cancellations to passengers and decided that compensation was payable for delays over 3 hours - subject to a defence by the airline of extraordinary circumstances. Other EU airlines and countries have (reluctantly) accepted Sturgeon and are paying out compensation for long delays - but not those flights into or out of England or Wales.

P and O in their letter of 20th January 2012 are denying my request for compensation under the EU rules, claiming this is only for cancelled flights. For delayed flights they are obliged to provide meals, refreshment and communication facilities.

The operating air carrier, Thomas Cook, is responsible for the provision of meals, refreshments and communication under Article 9 of EC Reg 261/2004 and it seems that this was provided (or organised) on their behalf by P and O.

If you look back at posts over the past 10 pages, you will see suggested letters and references to all the legislation.

If any point is unclear or you have any other queries, please post back.

LutherBlisset

Need a bit of help with this one. Newbie here - please be gentle!

A recent BA flight that I took was cancelled. We were put on the next flight that was scheduled to leave an hour later. This flight was then delayed. We arrived at our destination more than 2 hours late.

I put in a claim for compensation under the EU scheme. BA have turned this down on the following grounds:

"Your claim for compensation has been refused because our systems show that we informed you of the cancellation either on the day of departure, which may have been at the airport, or within the previous 6 days. You were offered a rerouting scheduled to leave no more than 1 hour before your original departure time, and scheduled to arrive at your final destination less than 2 hours after your original arrival time. Under EU legislation, British Airways is not liable for a compensation payment."

This may indeed be all above board and correct but I just wanted to check???

Many thanks in advance.

richardw

Did you arrive more than 3 hours late?

LutherBlisset

Over 2 hours late but less than 3 hours late.

With ref to:

"(iii) they are informed of the cancellation less than seven days before the scheduled time of departure and are offered re-routing, allowing them to depart no more than one hour before the scheduled time of departure and to reach their final destination less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival."

oasis1979

what is the deal if you miss a connecting flight due to a delay

ian41

LutherBlisset wrote: »

A recent BA flight that I took was cancelled. We were put on the next flight that was scheduled to leave an hour later. This flight was then delayed. We arrived at our destination more than 2 hours late.

I put in a claim for compensation under the EU scheme. BA have turned this down on the following grounds:

"Your claim for compensation has been refused because our systems show that we informed you of the cancellation either on the day of departure, which may have been at the airport, or within the previous 6 days. You were offered a rerouting scheduled to leave no more than 1 hour before your original departure time, and scheduled to arrive at your final destination less than 2 hours after your original arrival time. Under EU legislation, British Airways is not liable for a compensation payment."

This may indeed be all above board and correct but I just wanted to check???

Many thanks in advance.

Yes BA is correct.

Under EC Reg 261/2004 Article 5.1(iii), BA offered you a re-routing which was scheduled to leave no earlier than 1 hour (than your original flight) and to reach your final destination less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival (of your original flight). You accepted this re-routing so BA has met its obligations under the Regulation and no cancellation compensation is payable.

Your replacement flight was also delayed but unless this replacement fliight was itself delayed for more than three hours from its scheduled arrival time, then there is no basis for compensation for delay. If it was over three hours, then an aiiline can claim (but has to prove) a defence of "extraordinary circumstances". In addition, claims for delay in England and Wales are currently "stayed" and most airlines (including BA) are refusing all delay claims pending a ruling by the ECJ.

I am sorry to say that there is no basis for compensation. Hope that was gentle enough!

ian41

oasis1979 wrote: »

what is the deal if you miss a connecting flight due to a delay

The question is capable of being answered in several different ways depending on which airline(s) were involved, your destination(s) and the delays.

If you would like to give me details of dates, times (scheduled and actual), airline flight numbers, departure and arrival airport for both flights and whether both flights appeared in the same PNR (6 digit booking reference) then I would be happy to give you a specific response.

NFH

ian41 wrote: »

Under EC Reg 261/2004 Article 5.1(iii), BA offered you a re-routing which was scheduled to leave no earlier than 1 hour (than your original flight) and to reach your final destination less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival (of your original flight). You accepted this re-routing so BA has met its obligations under the Regulation and no cancellation compensation is payable.

Article 5(1)(c)(iii) of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 states that compensation should be paid unless:

they are informed of the cancellation less than seven days before the scheduled time of departure and are offered re-routing, allowing them to depart no more than one hour before the scheduled time of departure and to reach their final destination less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival.

The OP says that the flight arrived more than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival. The regulation doesn't state that the re-routing should be scheduled to arrive in less than two hours, but should allow the passenger to arrive in less than two hours. Given that the re-routing did not allow the passenger to arrive in less than two hours after the scheduled time of arrival, BA have fallen foul of the regulation and do have to pay out. Am I missing something?