Compensation for delayed flights Discussion Area

philc_2

Hi,

ian41 wrote: »

However, there is currently a "stay" in England and Wales regarding compensation payments for long delays (over 3 hours), pending "clarification" by the ECJ. Until this is handed down, all UK based airlines (as well as some but not all others flying out of the UK) are refusing to consider all compensation claims for long flight delays. So sit tight and wait.

So once the above ruling is made, if it is favourable to those claiming compensation, that have been fobbed off by airlines because of it, does that mean they can claim regardless of the time elapsed?

Is there any indication of when the 'clarification' might be? Sorry if this has already been explained elsewhere.

Cheers,

Phil

ian41

philc wrote: »

Hi,

So once the above ruling is made, if it is favourable to those claiming compensation, that have been fobbed off by airlines because of it, does that mean they can claim regardless of the time elapsed?

Yes up to 6 years from the date of the incident/breach. I have read that easyJet has suggested the period maybe 2 years but airlines often seek to obfuscate for obvious reasons!

Don't forget, if the ruling is to support Sturgeon (and in favour of passengers) as expected, then airlines can still seek to use the defence of extraordinary circumstances on a case by case basis i.e. the same as cancellation

Is there any indication of when the 'clarification' might be? Sorry if this has already been explained elsewhere.

Cheers,

Phil

No - it could be Monday, sometime this year or maybe 2013 or 2014. No-one knows when. The EU Commissioner for Transport would like clarification quickly as all other EU countries (save England/Wales) have accepted the implications of Sturgeon but it is up to the European Courts of Justice.

Tactically, this referral to the ECJ by UK airlines will save them an absolute fortune because a minute percentage of passengers will remember/bother to claim once the ruling is handed down - and details become hazy with the passage of time.

pedrobazza

Hi all,

A couple of weeks ago EasyJet cancelled our flight (Manchester-Berlin) 3 hours before take off, and were fairly shambolic at the airport, offering no assistance. I was unaware of 261/2004 at the time, and therefore didn't realise that they should have offered refreshments etc while we were queueing for 2 hours trying to find out our options (despite the check-in desks being clear, we were told they "can't help" and had to queue at the sales desk). We were eventually told we could fly to Berlin 2 days later (Sunday as opposed to Friday), but this wasn't an option, so we ended up losing out on three days' hotel costs. Whilst at the airport we noticed only a couple of flights had been cancelled from Manchester, and checked the Berlin airport website - all appeared normal. The email we received from Easyjet a few days later claimed it was due to severe weather but this was a bit fishy, so I started to do some digging and found out about 261/2004. I have since begun an email exchange (below) with 'customer services', and would be grateful if any of you could offer feedback/advice on this.

Many thanks

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to you in connection with the above flight onto which I was
booked on Friday 16/12/11.

The flight was supposed to depart from Manchester Airport at 1805, but was
cancelled, notice of which was received by text message at 1446, by which
time we had already arrived at the airport. We were directed to join the
queue for the sales desk, as check-in staff were "unable to help", despite
two desks being free of passengers. After two hours of queueing, we were
verbally informed that the flight was cancelled, and the option given was
to wait and fly from Manchester on Sunday 18/12/11. This was not
acceptable due to our schedule.

During our time queueing we were able to access the arrivals page of the
Berlin Schoenefeld website, on which we could see that other flights from
the UK were landing on time there (including flights from Liverpool),
meaning that the cancellation could not have been caused by the weather.

We have since received correspondence (dated 21 December 2011 03:01:57)
claiming that the cancellation was "caused by severe weather which
affected the schedule of the aircraft planned to operate your flight",
which is clearly false due to the number of flights landing at Berlin
Schoenefeld.

As per EU Regulation 261/2004, we are entitled to the sum of €250 per
passenger compensation (€500 total) and look forward to receiving the
sterling equivalent in full within the next 14 days.

THEIR REPLY

Thank you for contacting us.

I am very sorry to hear about the cancellation of your flight and regret the
inconvenience that was caused to you. We work hard to provide you with a punctual
and reliable service. Cancelling a flight is always the last resort as we understand
how frustrating it is for you.

I have looked in to the details of your flight cancellation and discovered that it
was due to cancelled due to the effects of snow/ice conditions. Such a cancellation
is considered under our Carrier's Regulations and European Law to be an
'extraordinary circumstance', which means it was beyond our reasonable control. For
that reason I'm afraid we are unable to offer you any compensation.

Kindly click on the following link to know more about our policy relating to
delays/cancellation:

(link removed)

I understand you found that various other flights were landing at the airport.
However, please note that the conditions at the airport were not conducive for the
take off of the flight. We always aim at providing a safe and a secure travel to our
passengers and will not compromise of the safety of the passengers at all.

Thank you for taking the time to getting in touch with us and let me apologise again
for the inconvenience.

I hope this experience will not deter you from flying with us in future. You are a
valued customer and I wish you and your family a very Happy New Year.

Regards

easyJet Customer Services

MY REPLY

Thank you for your reply.

I am extremely disappointed that you have chosen to cite 'extraordinary
circumstances' as a means to avoid paying the cancellation compensation
which is legally due under EU regulation 261/2004. I had been entirely
reasonable in only claiming the minimum due, and did not seek to cover the
money we lost on a hotel booking we could not use, or the hotel we paid to
stay in on the night of the cancelled flight. Nor did I seek damages for
the lack of assistance (again due under EU 261/2004) offered.

I would like you to clarify the point "conditions at the airport were not
conducive for the take off of the flight". Which airport was this? As
aircraft were taking off AND landing at both Manchester and Berlin
airports, I fail to see how this would result in my flight being
cancelled.

As "a valued customer" I would appreciate a swift, satisfactory resolution
to this issue, otherwise I will be obliged to pursue this matter further
with the Civil Aviation Authority.

Kind regards

THEIR REPLY

Thank you for writing to us again.

I am disappointed to learn that you were unhappy with my previous response.

I totally appreciate your concern regarding your claim for compensation. However,
please note that the flight was cancelled due to the weather conditions which is an
extraordinary situation and beyond our control. Under European Union legislation, an
'Extraordinary' situation is which that cannot be avoided, even if all reasonable
measures are taken. And I am sure that you will recognise that the weather
conditions cannot be predicted and are beyond our control.

Further, kindly note that the decision regarding the take off or a landing of the
flight (for any airline) is in the hands of the Airport Liaison Officer. We follow
the instructions of the ALO in regards to the same.

Having checked your booking details, I found that you have already received a refund
in the amount of 215.15 GBP for your complete booking cost on 17th December 2011.

Appreciating the inconvenience that you have suffered in this regards, as a gesture
of goodwill I can offer you free baggage for two people on your next flight with us.

I understand that you had a negative experience during your last travel with us.
However, I hope I was able to restore your faith with us.

Regards


MY REPLY

Thank you once again for your reply, and for taking the trouble to look
into my booking details. I have indeed received a refund for the flights I
was unable to board, although I fail to see how this is relevant to this
claim.

I would like you to clarify the point "Further, kindly note that the
decision regarding the take off or a landing of the flight (for any
airline) is in the hands of the Airport Liaison Officer. We follow the
instructions of the ALO in regards to the same". Do you have an ALO per
airport or per flight? If it is per airport, I would like to draw your
attention to the following, bearing in mind that our flight was scheduled
to depart from Manchester at 1805 and arrive in Berlin at 2105 (all times
local):

- These EasyJet flights departed from Manchester airport on the date in
question (actual local time of departure in brackets): EZ1973 to Paphos
(1803); EZ1801 to Madrid (1914)

- These EasyJet flights arrived at Berlin Schoenefeld airport on the date
in question (actual local time of departure in brackets): EZ4706 from
Brussels (2025); EZ4568 from Amsterdam; EZ4558 from Copenhagen (2112);
EZ4515 from Gatwick (2126); EZ6237 from Bristol (2137)

In the event that our flight would be using the same aircraft that was the
cancelled flight EZ1898, due to depart from Berlin at 1620, I would like
to draw your attention to this:

- These EasyJet flights departed from Berlin Schoenefeld airport on the
date in question (actual local time of departure in brackets): EZ4264 to
Paris (1440); EZ4633 to Basel (1545); EZ7916 to Madrid (1615); EZ4529 to
Barcelona (1650); EZ4705 to Brussels (1720); EZ5414 to Gatwick (1810).

I have only drawn your attention to the Easyjet flights; there were dozens
of other flights departing and arriving at both airports at all relevant
times. I am sure you would agree that this invalidates Easyjet's claim
that "the flight was cancelled due to the weather conditions which is an
extraordinary situation and beyond our control".

I would at this point like to remind you that in my original claim I was
extremely reasonable in only claiming the minimum due, did not seek to
cover the money we lost on a hotel booking we could not use, the hotel we
paid to stay in on the night of the cancelled flight, nor did I seek
damages for the lack of assistance (again due under EU 261/2004) offered.
I am willing to remain reasonable and seek only the minimum legally due,
but this is liable to change should I be forced to take the matter
further.

Having already spent more time than I feel necessary pursuing what is a
valid, clear-cut claim, unless your reply includes details of how and when
we shall be receiving at least the amount due, all future correspondence
will be conducted through my solicitor, and my custom will never be
received again by Easyjet.

Thank you,

THEIR REPLY

Thank you for writing to us again.

Please note that the flight was scheduled to be performed by the aircraft GEZDC
which was diverted to Birmingham on its previous rotation. Due to Liverpool and
Manchester snow closures causing multiple diversions in the network, the flight was
cancelled as the aircrafts were out of place.

I totally appreciate your concern and understand that you were inconvenienced
because of the disruption, but I will still reiterate that the disruption was caused
due to the weather conditions and therefore, no refund is payable.

Please consider this my final response for this query.

MY LATEST REPLY (this morning, into which I copied their CEO, as per a post I found on a forum)

Thank you once again for your swift reply. Unfortunately I refuse to
accept this as your "final response for this query", and have copied in
the CEO of your company in the hope that this will expedite a satifactory
resolution.

I am dismayed by your insistence that extraordinary circumstances were
behind the cancellation of my flight, and am concerned about the
inconsistency and vagueness in your reasoning for this.

Firstly you claimed it was:

- "due to the effects of snow/ice conditions...I understand you found that
various other flights were landing at the airport. However, please note
that the conditions at the airport were not conducive for the take off of
the flight."

You did not specify which airport, and when I countered that aircraft were
taking off and landing at both Manchester and Berlin, you then claimed:

- "the decision regarding the take off or a landing of the flight (for any
airline) is in the hands of the Airport Liaison Officer. We follow the
instructions of the ALO in regards to the same"

I then pointed out the fact that flights belonging to YOUR airline were
departing from and arriving at both airports at around the times my flight
was due to depart/arrive. You also ignored my question "Do you have an ALO
per airport or per flight?" and have now claimed:

- "Please note that the flight was scheduled to be performed by the
aircraft GEZDC which was diverted to Birmingham on its previous rotation.
Due to Liverpool and Manchester snow closures causing multiple diversions
in the network, the flight was cancelled as the aircrafts were out of
place."

The introduction of Birmingham into the case now appears to be an attempt
to obfuscate the matter. I will now counter this, along with the
"Liverpool and Manchester snow closures" you have conveniently discovered.

On the date in question, Friday 16th December, between the hours of 6am
and 6pm, 380 flights were scheduled to depart from Manchester; of these,
316 did so. A further 346 flights were scheduled to arrive; of these, 291
did so. This gives us a total of 607 out of 726 flights, or 83.6%. These
are NOT extraordinary circumstances.

On the date in question, Friday 16th December, between the hours of 6am
and 6pm, 55 flights were scheduled to depart from Liverpool; of these, 40
did so. A further 37 flights were scheduled to arrive; of these, 24 did
so. This gives us a total of 64 out of 92 flights, or 69.6%. These are NOT
extraordinary circumstances.

On the date in question, Friday 16th December, between the hours of 6am
and 6pm, 129 flights were scheduled to depart from Birmingham; of these,
124 did so. A further 107 flights were scheduled to arrive; of these, 98
did so. This gives us a total of 222 out of 236 flights, or 94.1%. These
are NOT extraordinary circumstances.

I would like to remind you that I have been entirely reasonable in only
claiming the minimum LEGALLY due, and did not seek to cover the money we
lost on a hotel booking we could not use, or the hotel we paid to stay in
on the night of the cancelled flight. Nor did I seek damages for the lack
of assistance (again due under EU 261/2004) offered.

I have flown with Easyjet on numerous occasions, and except for the odd
short delay, had never encountered a problem. Now it seems that if there
is a problem, Easyjet are unwilling to accept any responsibility, and will
do all they can to avoid paying the legally due compensation. In this
economic climate, where companies are desperate for customer loyalty, I
would have thought that customer service should be of paramount
importance; in the case of Easyjet, I have obviously been mistaken, and
will henceforth take my custom elsewhere.

I look forward to a swift, positive response, which may help restore my
faith in your organisation.

ian41

pedrobazza wrote: »

Hi all,

A couple of weeks ago EasyJet cancelled our flight (Manchester-Berlin) 3 hours before take off, and were fairly shambolic at the airport, offering no assistance. I was unaware of 261/2004 at the time, and therefore didn't realise that they should have offered refreshments etc while we were queueing for 2 hours trying to find out our options (despite the check-in desks being clear, we were told they "can't help" and had to queue at the sales desk). We were eventually told we could fly to Berlin 2 days later (Sunday as opposed to Friday), but this wasn't an option, so we ended up losing out on three days' hotel costs. Whilst at the airport we noticed only a couple of flights had been cancelled from Manchester, and checked the Berlin airport website - all appeared normal. The email we received from Easyjet a few days later claimed it was due to severe weather but this was a bit fishy, so I started to do some digging and found out about 261/2004. I have since begun an email exchange (below) with 'customer services', and would be grateful if any of you could offer feedback/advice on this.

Many thanks

My layman's view on this is as follows.

Why not try the following?

Dear Sirs
To date, you have managed to give me three completely different explanations for the cancellation of my flight.
Your last explanation was to suggest that the incoming aircraft to Manchester – an Airbus A319 Reg No G-EXDC – was diverted to Birmingham. According to information given to me late today, this aircraft was indeed diverted to Birmingham at approx 1321 but was on its way from Nice to Liverpool as U27068. It subsequently left Birmingham to continue to Liverpool. This aircraft then left Liverpool at 1630 for Berlin arriving at 2025 as U27221. To round off its day, this aircraft then left Berlin at 2130 to return to Liverpool arriving at 2245 as U27224. So your latest “explanation” is again shown to be wanting.
Before you attempt to defend the indefensible with yet another “explanation”, I should make it clear that unless I receive Euro 500 (@ 1Euro = 0.84055GBP, the official ECB exchange rate at 16/12/2011) which equates to £420.28, within 14 days of this email, I will commence legal action through the courts. At that time and in subsequent court papers, I will bring to the court’s attention the fact that Easyjet has tried three different attempts to explain their position - each one clutching a different straw. The court will draw its own conclusion from your statements.
Please escalate this to a supervisor for early and sensible resolution. Thank you.
================================================

As for your overnight hotel costs, sorry but these are not Easyjet's responsibility bearing in mind the timing of the cancellation. The loss of your first (and any subsequent) nights pre-paid hotel costs in Berlin is again not Easyjet's responsibility but should be claimed from your Travel Insurance following the cancellation of your flights.

Any queries, please let me know.

ian41

Saramond wrote: »

The time from Gib to Malaga is approx 90 minutes.

Thank you so much for your help. I'll speak to my hubbie and get back to you.

This is my personal take as a layman on your situation.

When I looked at the stats for 21/12/2010 on different websites initially, there were some peculiar contradictions. These included at least one reference - or a critical lack of reference - to an expected event, as follows

1. No record of the arrival at Malaga of the Monarch flight diverted from Gibraltar.

2. No record of the departure from Malaga of the diverted Monarch flight back to Luton.

3. A record showing that the BA flight to Gibraltar landed at Gibraltar

4. No record at Luton showing that the flight arrival in the afternoon was from Malaga rather than Gibraltar.

5. The passengers previously stranded at Malaga from an earlier Monarch flight. The last Monarch flight from Malaga to Luton on 20/12/2010 operated normally and there was no flight scheduled for 21/12/2010. So if there were passengers previously stranded at Malaga, difficult to see where they came from (possibility of overbooking the previous night?).

6. The METAR weather reports issued hourly by Gibraltar Airport that morning do not suggest any reason why the flights could not land unless there were sudden, extreme and short-lived conditions lasting a few minutes.

Based on the above, and your initial post, there was reasonable doubt about whether Monarch’s flight to Gibraltar was diverted on 21/12/2010 or possibly, flown direct to Malaga to pick up passengers already stranded at Malaga. In addition, there were other possible permutations.

However, based on further research, your account and your husband’s written recollections at the time (sent to me by PM), I now believe that the series of aberrations in some flight stats as shown above were either incomplete or error entries (which can happen) but that your joint recollections seem to be consistent and clear. The primary issue is whether or not the Gibraltar in-bound flight was diverted. It seems it was and the BA and Easyjet flights also did not land at Gibraltar and were diverted elsewhere.

In my view, as the diversion from Gibraltar was weather-related (and as it affected other airlines), it is no longer a matter of conjecture. Monarch will not volunteer to pay compensation for subsequent events following the diversion even though they resulted in very long delays and maybe, denied boarding of passengers transferred from Gibraltar.

I would suggest that if this matter went the legal route, Monarch would defend it as the claim would be for Euro 2400. I do not believe that a District Judge would award compensation for either delay or denied boarding against Monarch due to the diversion. All subsequent events after the weather diversion are irrelevant because they are deemed to be as a result of the diversion

Having said that, Monarch’s subsequent behaviour to you and your family was appalling. They or their agents misled you. They also committed breaches of EC Reg 261/2004 Articles 14.2, 8 and 9, although they belatedly offered vouchers under Article 9. However, whereas the compensation tariff for denied boarding, cancellation and long delay is clearly established, I am unaware of any reports of any court that has awarded monetary compensation for breaches of Arts 8, 9 or 14.2 and so I would suggest that it would not make any sense to commence a legal action based on these breaches.

In your shoes, I would still want to make Monarch aware of both my feelings and their shortcomings – even at this late stage. If you would like me to try compose a (persuasive) complaint letter to them with the aim of extracting something from the deep pockets of Monarch (possibly a Monarch Travel Voucher or similar?), then please let me know. If yes, it would be useful to let me know the ages of your young children on 21/12/2010. If no, then I am sorry that I could not give you better news.

Of course, others may have a different view.

richardw

It is disappointing that these weather related diversions from GIB to AGP aren't better planned for by the airlines to negate delays of 3 hours or more to passengers.

pedrobazza

Hi Ian,

Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to look into this for me. I have received an unsatisfactory reply to my previous email and will be forwarding your response. Could I just ask where you got the flight info from, just in case they begin to query? I have been getting my info from flightstats.

Thanks again

Pete

ian41

pedrobazza wrote: »

Hi Ian,

Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to look into this for me. I have received an unsatisfactory reply to my previous email and will be forwarding your response. Could I just ask where you got the flight info from, just in case they begin to query? I have been getting my info from flightstats.

Thanks again

Pete

flightstats.co.uk is usually quite reliable for most European and all US flight data. It collects and disseminates data on an automated basis. I have been quoted on various websites saying that one website source is insufficient to check historical flights and I stand by that.

One area that flightstats in Europe (incl UK) is very weak is where scheduled flights are diverted from the designated arrivals airport. The automated system that flightstats and others use cannot cope with this with any degree of reliability.

As a consequence, those who spend considerable time sourcing/checking flight data are very protective of their sources. Sorry but I am no different. If I released the names of my different sources, then I would not be able to check my information in the future.

From your viewpoint, it doesn't matter because you do not need that information. EZY claimed something that, according to two of my sources, appears to be completely untrue. In the suggested email, you have pointed out their error and given them chapter and verse - certainly you do not need to give the source of this to EZY.

In your shoes, I would send the suggested email without modification.

pedrobazza

Sorry about that - I betrayed the fact I'm a newbie!

I forwarded your suggested email, will update the forum as and when i get a reply.

Thanks again for your help, it's massively appreciated!!

lewroll

ian41 can I tap your knowledge please???

Is there a website I can look at that will tell me a) whether a flight actually took off and b) if it did, whether it was full or not?

The flight in question originated in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt and was bound for Manchester. (Easyjet)

Many thanks in advance for your help