Compensation for delayed flights Discussion Area

ian41

Saramond wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm looking for some advice, please.

We (2 adults and 4 children) traveled with Monarch on ZB 69 on 21st Dec 2010.

We were scheduled to leave at 11:55am from Gibraltar to Luton. The flight was unable to land because of weather conditions.

The inbound flight was diverted to Malaga and we were eventually transported, by coach, to Malaga Airport.

On arrival at Malaga we were told our plane was there and they would shortly get us on our way. We eventually found out, via th UK, that our plane had actually taken passengers delayed at Malaga home instead of us.

We stood in a check in queue for hours before finally being checked in on the Manchester flight (which would stop at Luton) due to take off at 20.20 that evening.

We were eventually given 10 euros food vouchers each, around 8 hours after our original departure time.

To add to our frustration there was a further 2 hour delay until our flight took off.

We arrived in the UK around 1:00am, 11 hours later than scheduled.

Do we have any right to compensation?

TIA

Sorry for the delayed response. I have had a quick look at the situation and there are some odd things that need further investigation.

In the meantime, could you give me some additional info as follows:

1. You mention 2A + 4C travelling. Are you all resident in Gibraltar? Were the Monarch tickets you purchased, available at the similar prices to the general public?

2. At what time on 21/12 did Monarch tell you first about the diversion to Malaga and what was said, as specifically as possible please? Had you checked in at that time and been given boarding cards? Did Monarch give you any further information after their first announcement?

3. Can you estimate how many pax were coached from Gib to Malaga? This is important to try to estimate the total numbers for the flight e.g. were there (say) 2 x 40 seater coaches that were pretty full or by some miracle, do you know the specific number of pax?

4. When you arrived at Malaga, did Monarch check you and your baggage in immediately and give you (new) boarding cards? What flight number and departure time was shown on these boarding cards? What did check-in staff say specifically about your departure time?

5. How did Monarch announce the further delays to your flight at Malaga i.e. you had boarding cards for your flight but did this flight number ever appear on the Departures board at Malaga?

6. You mentioned that other pax from Malaga were given priority on your flight. How did you get this information? Presumably these "Malaga pax" had boarding cards with different flight numbers? Do you know what this flight number was?

7. As a Gib resident, you will be used to some inclement weather. When you went to the airport that morning, and despite the occasional thunderstorm, were you surprised that weather prevented the Monarch flight from landing? (I have detailed weather reports for the airport on that day).

In general, I am trying to build up a picture of what was said by Monarch (or their representatives) and separate it from the important info that you gleaned/picked up from others.

Once I have your response and have answers to queries raised elsewhere, I will report back to you with some appropriate advice. It might take 72 hours after receipt of your answers.

Saramond

ian41, thank you for your help so far. I wish I'd found this a year ago!

1. You mention 2A + 4C travelling. Are you all resident in Gibraltar? Were the Monarch tickets you purchased, available at the similar prices to the general public?

Yes we are resident in Gib, they were bought from the UK Monarch site the same as you do from the UK.

2. At what time on 21/12 did Monarch tell you first about the diversion to Malaga and what was said, as specifically as possible please? Had you checked in at that time and been given boarding cards? Did Monarch give you any further information after their first announcement?

. We'd check in and were in Departures. As far as I can remember, the flight did attempt to land, but decided to divert. There was also a Easyjet and a BA flight rerouted to Malaga too. The Easyjet cancelled the flight out of Gib and the Monarch and the BA took passengers to Malaga.

All we were told was that we were being diverted and that coaches were being sent. The BA flight was actually sheduled to land after the Monarch, and yet they took these passengers first. We weren't told why this was. It's GibAir rather than Monarch that you deal with in departures.

3. Can you estimate how many pax were coached from Gib to Malaga? This is important to try to estimate the total numbers for the flight e.g. were there (say) 2 x 40 seater coaches that were pretty full or by some miracle, do you know the specific number of pax?

. I think there were 2 1/2 coaches full, I can't remember but there were a lot of passengers. It was just before Christmas and flights are generally quite full.


4. When you arrived at Malaga, did Monarch check you and your baggage in immediately and give you (new) boarding cards? What flight number and departure time was shown on these boarding cards? What did check-in staff say specifically about your departure time?

We were left at Malaga and not really told our plane was there and they would sort out a check in desk and board us as soon as possible. We weren't checked in for a good 3 hours. My husband has the exact times, I will update this when he can look back for me. We were just left to queue without any information what so ever. Not at any point during this wait did anyone tell us anything. We were given new barding cards when we eventually checked in, with the Manchester flight number on them. (I'll look back to see if I have that info)

5. How did Monarch announce the further delays to your flight at Malaga i.e. you had boarding cards for your flight but did this flight number ever appear on the Departures board at Malaga?

They didn't announce anything. We expected our flight number to show up on the board when we arrived in Malaga, but it never did. it only ever showed the Manchester departure.

6. You mentioned that other pax from Malaga were given priority on your flight. How did you get this information? Presumably these "Malaga pax" had boarding cards with different flight numbers? Do you know what this flight number was?

That was info gained from another passenger from the UK, so not sure how accurate it is. However, our plane landed in Malaga, and yet it was not there to take us home, so it must have gone somewhere.

7. As a Gib resident, you will be used to some inclement weather. When you went to the airport that morning, and despite the occasional thunderstorm, were you surprised that weather prevented the Monarch flight from landing? (I have detailed weather reports for the airport on that day).

It was quite windy if i remember correctly. I remember not being totally surprised that they decided to divert.

Basically, a GIbAir rep came with us to Malaga, told us our plane was there etc then left. That was part if the problem, no information at all, which was very frustrating.

To be honest, I know that flying from Gib at that time of year could very well lead to a diversion to Malaga. Had we been taken to Malaga and checked in straight away, I wouldn't have pursued it. But being left for hours after being told our plane was there when it clearly wasn't is unreasonable.

Thanks for your help.

ian41

Saramond wrote: »

2. At what time on 21/12 did Monarch tell you first about the diversion to Malaga and what was said, as specifically as possible please? Had you checked in at that time and been given boarding cards? Did Monarch give you any further information after their first announcement?

We'd check in and were in Departures. As far as I can remember, the flight did attempt to land, but decided to divert. There was also a Easyjet and a BA flight rerouted to Malaga too. The Easyjet cancelled the flight out of Gib and the Monarch and the BA took passengers to Malaga.

All we were told was that we were being diverted and that coaches were being sent. The BA flight was actually sheduled to land after the Monarch, and yet they took these passengers first. We weren't told why this was. It's GibAir rather than Monarch that you deal with in departures.

I know how difficult it is to recall exact details some time after the event. Are you 100% positive that the Monarch aircraft did attempt to land at Gib? Do you want to review all the answers in your post with your husband and family to be as certain as possible?

One further question, how long does it now take by road from Gib to Malaga airport?

Interestingly, one stats website shows only 3 Monarch flights arriving and departing from Malaga on 21/12 - two from/to Manchester and one from/to Gatwick! The Monarch flight ex GIB is not showing.

Pending other answers from elsewhere, we have four different scenarios

(A) if the Monarch flight was diverted from Gib to Malaga, then all the transferred pax should have been able to check-in, board and fly to LTN immediately after a prompt check-in. If you were not permitted to do so, and other pax were boarded in preference, it would appear that you were Denied Boarding and, in theory, should be compensated.

(B) if the Monarch flight was diverted from Gib to Malaga, then all the transferred pax should have been able to check-in, board and fly to LTN immediately after a prompt check-in. If you were not permitted to do so then possibly, the aircraft returned to LTN empty under instructions by Monarch FlightOps. This action might have been taken to ensure that other flights using this aircraft for the remainder of the day were not compromised. (To support this view, I do see evidence on one stat website of a Flight ZB69 arriving approx 1 hour later than scheduled at Luton so maybe it flew back empty rather than wait for pax?) If this is the case, I would argue that Monarch took a commercial decision and you were Denied Boarding and in theory, should be compensated.

(C) depending on your answer above, perhaps the incoming ZB68 Flight was cancelled before leaving Luton and the aircraft used elsewhere in the Monarch route network. That would explain why there was no aircraft for you to board immediately at Malaga.

(D) maybe Monarch will try to claim that as they tried to land at Gib and failed, then there is no compensation payable as all events subsequently were as a result of the original diversion.

Before you (mentally) spend this compensation (if payable it would be Euro 2400), there are a few points that I need to bring to your attention.

The Gibraltar factor. If you read EC Reg 261/2004 below, look at Recital 24 and Articles 1.2 and 1.3.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:EN:HTML

I do not know whether Article 1.3 has now been resolved and therefore whether or not this “suspension” has been lifted. I have emailed the EU Transport Secretariat and await a formal response from them.

If this suspension has been lifted, then there will be a procedure for claiming any compensation due for Denied Boarding or delay, direct from Gibraltar. If this suspension is still in force, then you will claim compensation for delay using an English or Welsh address (presumably either you or your husband has relatives in England or Wales and this address can be quoted on any claim letters and/or legal documents).

If it is Denied Boarding or a flight delay and if the Gibraltar suspension has been lifted, you would be able to claim on Monarch immediately. If not, most UK-based airlines are refusing to accept claims for delayed flights, pending a ruling from the ECJ re the Sturgeon judgment. The full judgment on Sturgeon can be read here:

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?docid=73703&mode=req&pageIndex=1&dir=&occ=first&part=1&text=261%2F2004&doclang=EN&cid=444628#ctx1

However, if it is a case of Denied Boarding, then you are able to claim on Monarch immediately through the UK. (The current legal “stay” in the UK covers claims for long flight delays only.)

Once you have digested the above (there is a great deal to take in)and I have received answers to my outstanding queries from elsewhere, we will need to decide on a strategy going forward.

Please come back with any queries and after that, if you wish, I can suggest a way forward.

Saramond

ian41 wrote: »

One further question, how long does it now take by road from Gib to Malaga airport?

The time from Gib to Malaga is approx 90 minutes.

Thank you so much for your help. I'll speak to my hubbie and get back to you.

airplane500

An update for the forum: I've filled in the MCOL form for claiming compensation for bmi baby flight ww1104 (16/4/11) through the small claims court. Will update again when I hear anything...

2805

Hi,2 families flew out of LHR to MAD,then on to MIAMI,for a holiday of a lifetime..or so we thought,the flight from LHR was late leaving,which ment we missed the connection,by 15 mins....after a 4 hour wait in a queue in madrid,IBERIA said there were no more flights,and we all had to go to a hotel for the night,,with no bags,next day they were going to send us to barcelona then miami????.this again was delayed,which would mean we would yet again miss the connection.this was changed and we got a flight.when we arrived they had lossed all our bags:mad:after 4 days we got 7 delivered to us,and the next day we got the other 2,we had to buy gear for everyone,plus toileties......we need compensation,but IBERIA are crap at customer service

Caz3121

2805 wrote: »

Hi,2 families flew out of LHR to MAD,then on to MIAMI,for a holiday of a lifetime..or so we thought,the flight from LHR was late leaving,which ment we missed the connection,by 15 mins....after a 4 hour wait in a queue in madrid,IBERIA said there were no more flights,and we all had to go to a hotel for the night,,with no bags,next day they were going to send us to barcelona then miami????.this again was delayed,which would mean we would yet again miss the connection.this was changed and we got a flight.when we arrived they had lossed all our bags:mad:after 4 days we got 7 delivered to us,and the next day we got the other 2,we had to buy gear for everyone,plus toileties......we need compensation,but IBERIA are crap at customer service

You should treat the delay and the baggage as separate
baggage - you should have a PIR (Property Irregularity Report) you should be able to reclaim expenses for essential items by sending in receipts, also check your travel insurance to see what cover you have there
delay - do you know why your original flight into Madrid was delayed? Did Iberia arrange the hotels for you or did you have to book your own?

rew001

Hi

I was booked on a flight from Belfast City to Stansted which was delayed on the day of departure. The flight was due to depart at 2.20pm and land at 3.40pm. The departure time was 6.45pm and we landed at 8.00pm.
I wrote to BMI baby claiming compensation as set out in Article 7 of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 as BMI baby staff clearly stated that the delay was due to a technical fault i.e. not extraordinary circumstances and the delay was for more than 3 hours.
They have just replied to me stating that further to the EU Regs that came into effect on 17.2.2005 I was not entitled to compensation as the delay was less than 5 hours.
Is this correct? On this site it doesn't mention anything about a 5 hour delay for compensation for a flight of this distance - just 3 hours.
Can anyone clarify for me.
Many thanks

ian41

rew001 wrote: »

Hi

I wrote to BMI baby claiming compensation as set out in Article 7 of Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 as BMI baby staff clearly stated that the delay was due to a technical fault i.e. not extraordinary circumstances and the delay was for more than 3 hours.

Following the Sturgeon judgment in November 2009, you are correct - see here


http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?docid=73703&mode=req&pageIndex=1&dir=&occ=first&part=1&text=261%2F2004&doclang=EN&cid=444628#ctx1

However, there is currently a "stay" in England and Wales regarding compensation payments for long delays (over 3 hours), pending "clarification" by the ECJ. Until this is handed down, all UK based airlines (as well as some but not all others flying out of the UK) are refusing to consider all compensation claims for long flight delays. So sit tight and wait.

They have just replied to me stating that further to the EU Regs that came into effect on 17.2.2005 I was not entitled to compensation as the delay was less than 5 hours.
Is this correct?

No this is plain balderdash, absolute bunkum and plain wrong!

Until Sturgeon, and under EC Reg 261/2004, there was no compensation payable for long delays of any period be it 3, 5, 15, 25 or 50 hours.

The Sturgeon judgment was important because it said that long delays could be as inconvenient as cancellations to passengers and decided that compensation was payable for delays over 3 hours - subject to a defence by the airline of extraordinary circumstances.

Other EU countries have (reluctantly) accepted Sturgeon and are paying out compensation for long delays.

See if you can find any reference to compensation for delays in the full version of EC Reg 261/2004 which can be found here:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:EN:HTML

I cannot but I am not blessed with the vision of a BMIBaby claims handler!

ian41

airplane500 wrote: »

An update for the forum: I've filled in the MCOL form for claiming compensation for bmi baby flight ww1104 (16/4/11) through the small claims court. Will update again when I hear anything...

Now we get to the interesting part. Good luck!