Compensation for delayed flights Discussion Area

Caz3121

needmore75 wrote: »

Turns out the cancellations were unneccessary - you may have seen the papers critising the decision because it wasn't bad.

I have not seen that, my understanding of the 5th was that BAA said in advance of a snowflake that only 70% of flights would be operating due to the weather and the airlines were told to cancel a % of their operations for that day.
I believe on the actual day there were further weather issues and subsequently 50% of the scheduled flights rather than the 70% planned actually ran. But agree with the other posters, you should have no argument with "right to care" just stick to "reimbursement" rather than "compensation"

pycroft

ian41 wrote: »

Sorry but we have a hiccup!

Just started putting things together but I have come across a problem with conflicting dates and facts. This is important because if you are writing a final letter to airlines (or whoever) before you take legal action - it should summarise facts.

You have mentioned three or four times earlier in this thread and you confirmed to me that you were only offered a choice of one re-routing and that this was 6 days later. So in my simple timeline, this would mean a flight from Miami on 7 January and/or from Madrid>Gatwick on 8 January - 6 days after your original flight.

I was looking to check some details for someone else in another thread in early January. I came across one of your other threads which talks about not only two alternatives offered to you, but also different dates - one on 30 December and the other on 6 January - presumably both ex-Miami or were they ex-Madrid dates?

So which is the correct position/date please?

Sorry for the confusion. The full version is that I was on a cruise and received an email from my travel agent Hays telling me my entire flight home was cancelled. This email was received by me very late on 29 December - it was sent on 28 December but I was not checking email every day. This email did give me two alternatives one was leaving Miami on 30 Dec arriving London 31st Dec.This was impossible to accept as I was on a cruise and nowhere near Miami.The other date was leaving Miami on 6 Jan arriving London 7 Jan. Hays said I would have to accept or buy a full USA to UK ticket from another airline and accept a refund on the unused part of the Air Europa ticket.The cost to buy a USA/UK one way flight was very expensive (c. £900 per person ). After many phone calls to Hays - they said Air Europa would not provide any help other than a partial refund. I argued with Hays who then said Air Europa would allow me to fly to Madrid. but I would then have to get to the UK myself.


One other point that worries me. When Air Europa offered you via Hays Travel either 1, 2 or 3 options for re-routing, it was for the routing from Miami>Gatwick via Madrid. You declined but eventually agreed with Air Europa via Hays, that you would fly back to Madrid on your original date. At that stage, I would have expected Hays/Air Europa to organise a re-routing for Madrid>Gatwick - but nothing, zilch. Why didn't Hays do something about it immediately on your behalf?

I argued with them for this but they said they had spoken to Air Europa and nothing would be offered. They did agree to book my Easyjet flight for me without charging me a booking fee but I had to pay for it using my credit card.



From your other thread, you mention that others on your Miami>Madrid flight were given onward flights at Madrid (without charge) with easyJet (to Gatwick?) but you were not offered those flights and you had pre-bought them from Hays Travel.


A number of passengers at Madrid were given flights to the UK (various London airports) - These were the people who had turned up at Miami airport without any prior knowledge of the cancellation. A number of people like myself had booked alternative flights to the UK on travel agent advice.


Do you have any idea why Air Europa treated you differently from other passengers travelling to the UK? Again I presume that all four sectors on your tickets were fully confirmed and you had not been given stand-by tickets for the MAD>LGW sector originally?


All four sectors were fully confirmed. I think if I had turned up at Madrid airport I may have been given a flight back (some people were given hotels for a couple of days) but I was not told this was an option. Hays said I would have to make my own way to the UK hence booking the Easyjet flight.


One other point that I should emphasise. Action under EC Reg 261/2004 can only be taken by you against the operating air carrier - Air Europa. We will find out shortly but unusually in this situation, you only dealt with Hays Travel and maybe we will find out that the three way triangle was the reason why matters did not run smoothly. Perhaps communications between Hays and Air Europa were at fault?

Let me have the answers when you can please.

Thanks again



hope this helps



Thank you so much



Tony

ian41

pycroft wrote: »

Thanks again hope this helps.
Thank you so much

Tony

As a layman and if it was me, I would send a “shake the branches” (and slightly provocative) letter which will also double as a Letter before Action. It will give Air Europa something to consider. See below for my suggestion. Please re-check spellings, formatting, dates and amounts but otherwise suggest you leave as is.

After the 21 days is up and if Air Europa fail to respond as required, you would then be able to take appropriate legal action. Depending on the response to the final para of the letter, you might need to use the ESCP rather than the MCOL/English Courts. But that is getting ahead of ourselves and sending this letter does not commit you one way or another.

You could send either as a letter or by email.

I have sent you a PM to read.

Any queries let me know. If not, let the fun commence!

Please acknowledge that you have read this post by posting an acknowledgement or hitting the Thanks button.

=========================================
Insert Airline Name and Address below
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX


Dear Sirs

Letter before Action

Flight number ux 1015
Date 2 January 2012
Booking reference XXXXX
Passenger names XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX (start with name of lead passenger)
Incident reference number (if there is one)XXXXXXXXXXX

To conform with the UK’s Ministry of Justice’s Rules and Practice Directions, we outline below our claim in full to avoid any possible misunderstandings and to give you a final opportunity to settle this matter before court action.

Following your cancellation of flight ux1015 from Madrid (MAD) to London Gatwick (LGW) on 2 January 2012, this letter advances claims for compensation and reimbursement of our re-routing costs pursuant to Articles 5, 7, and 8 of EC Regulation 261/2004 (“the Reg”).

You had previously offered us a re-routing on a flight from Madrid to London Gatwick departing on 7 January 2012, some five days later. We declined this re-routing due to the exceptionally long delay between the original and revised flights and requested sensible alternatives. Our reasonable requests were denied by Air Europa. Subsequently on 30 December 2011, our travel agent, Hays Travel, booked flights with easyJet for onward travel from Madrid on 2 January,the day we were originally scheduled to travel with Air Europa from Madrid to London Gatwick.

1. Compensation due under Articles 5 and 7 of the Reg.

Our first claim is for Euro 250 compensation per passenger making a total of Euro 500 for the cancellation under Articles 5 and 7. Based on an ECB exchange rate of £0.83514 to 1 Euro at 2 January 2012, the equivalent is GBP 417.57.

In your letter dated 7 February 2012, you admitted that our flight ux 1015 on 2 January 2012 had been cancelled. You suggested that if this was an extraordinary circumstance then compensation would not be payable to us for our cancelled flight. We disagree that this is an extraordinary circumstance.

In that context, an external strike affecting an airline might be considered extraordinary in certain circumstances but a SEPLA inspired internal strike with your own pilots is entirely a different proposition, particularly when most of your flights operated on that day and there is always a possibility that commercial considerations may have had some influence on which flights were due to be cancelled or operate.

Should you wish to continue with a defence of extraordinary circumstances, I ask you to submit proof to me that meets or exceeds the very high standards required as discussed and illustrated by the ECJ in both the Wallentin-Hermann and Sturgeon rulings dated 22/12/2008 and 19/11/2009 respectively. I would like to examine the robustness of such evidence.

In addition, if you continue with that defence, you will need to demonstrate and prove to me that, under the Regulation, having established that there was a problem, you took all reasonable measures to avoid this cancellation.

Once again, it is clear to me that you did not take all reasonable measures to avoid the cancellation. I should remind you that Recital 12 of “the Reg”, states that

“the trouble and inconvenience to passengers caused by cancellation of flights should also be reduced. This should be achieved by inducing carriers to inform passengers of cancellations before the scheduled time of departure and in addition to offer them reasonable re-routing, so that the passengers can make other arrangements. Air carriers should compensate passengers if they fail to do this”

Unless you can produce and prove a new sustainable defence, then you have no reason to refuse payment of the compensation due under Articles 5 and 7.


2. Reimbursement of tickets purchased by us to allow a reasonable re-routing under Article 8 of the Reg.

Under Article 5.1(a) and (b) of the Reg, and regardless of whether or not compensation is payable, the passengers concerned shall:

(a) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 8; and

(b) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2), as well as, in event of re-routing when the reasonably expected time of departure of the new flight is at least the day after the departure as it was planned for the cancelled flight, the assistance specified in Article 9(1)(b) and 9(1)(c);

Turning now to Article 8 we find the following

Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:

(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,

- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;

(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.

There is no ambiguity here. It was our choice to accept a re-routing rather than take a refund and under Article 8.1(b) this “reasonable” re-routing should have been provided to us by Air Europa at the earliest opportunity. It was not; your suggested re-routing of a flight from Madrid on 7 January (5 days later) does not equate with the words “at the earliest opportunity”.

For the record and so that the court fully understands your aberrant behaviour in this matter, we received messages from Hays Travel, as your agent, informing us that we needed to buy our own return flights (initially from Miami and then subsequently from Madrid) and then apply for a refund.

You stated this on at least two separate occasions, knowing that this was completely wrong and you were acting contrary to the requirements of Article 8 of EC Reg 261/2004. Frankly, you ignored your legal responsibilities to us under the Reg and you were trying to bully us into accepting your position.

The most stupid part about Air Europa’s suggested re-routing five days later is that you would have been responsible for our accommodation, food and communication costs (under Article 9) for the 5 days and nights while we waited in Madrid for our re-routing. That would not have made economic sense to you.

You may also wish to note that we are aware that there were a number of passengers on our flight from Miami who were re-routed by you through easyJet to the UK – and at no cost to them. Why did you not provide the same service to us? Equally, as a member of Skyteam, you could have considered re-routing us via Paris or Amsterdam with Air France or KLM. Despite several requests for a sensible re-routing, you did not bother to fulfil your legal obligations.

So please do not waste further time. It will be made clear to the court that you not only failed to provide a satisfactory re-routing but you did this deliberately. As a consequence, we had to make our own “reasonable” flight re-routing with easyJet at a cost of GBP 432.00. We attach a further copy of the receipt.

We therefore ask you to provide a cheque for a total of £417.57 plus £432.00 = £849.57 in respect of compensation and a reimbursement of the re-routing costs that you forced us to purchase. We inform you that we expect to receive your cheque in full settlement within 21 days of today’s date or we reserve the right to commence legal action against you in respect of the damages specified above or indeed any other legal cause of action, without further notice. In addition, we reserve our rights to forward full details to the AESA, CAA and the EU Transport Secretariat and relevant media in the UK and Spain.

In that context, we note that Air Europa has an office at 126 Wigmore Street, London W1U 3RZ. Unless you settle our claims as stated in full, when replying would you advise whether the above is the correct address in the UK to receive court documents. If not, please advise an alternative address for service in the UK.

Yours faithfully

needmore75

Thanks to everyone for their advice.

I sent this to them via their customer relations thing online:

Hello
Our flight was cancelled due to bad weather on the 5th of Feb as no doubt you would be aware of. As a result we spent money calling BA (yet to get bill) to reschudele, an extra nights accommodation, food, travel to the station and we also had to hang around in London because our train tickets weren't valid on Monday until after peak time. I also had to take annual leave for the extra day from work. I am wondering if you could advise the reimbursement process, what we are able to claim and how to go about it? The EU law looks a bit complicated so a good straight forward answer would be appreciated.
Thanks for your time


Really appreciate all the advice and clarification. I feel less angry now I know I have noone to blame!

Thanks again

Sarah

ian41

needmore75 wrote: »

The EU law looks a bit complicated so a good straight forward answer would be appreciated.

Sarah

You were provided with a good straight forward answers previously including the link to EU Reg 261/2004 and also directed to Article 9 where it is all spelt out in very simple terms.

Airlines will re-imburse you for reasonable claims under Article 9 for:

Overnight accommodation
Meals/refreshments (with the emphasis on modest/reasonable and not gastronomic. Claims for alcohol tend to be excluded)
Travel to/from airport to your accommodation
Two phone calls/faxes/emails

For your guidance, all the above are per person/passenger. To support the claims you make, they ask for receipts for the first 3 items but have been known to accept a claim for up to Euro 10 pp for communication costs without receipt. (But they will not refund the cost of a general chat on your mobile).

They will not consider loss of time/holiday/salary/wages or sunshine etc and I am unsure what your point is regarding waiting for your train. There is no basis for a claim for this.

Finally, it is almost impossible to complete a BA on-line form without giving your Booking Reference etc so presume that you did that when communicating with BA - otherwise you will be waiting a long time for a reply.

Hope that helps you.

needmore75

ian41 wrote: »

Sarah

You were provided with a good straight forward answers previously including the link to EU Reg 261/2004 and also directed to Article 9 where it is all spelt out in very simple terms.

Finally, it is almost impossible to complete a BA on-line form without giving your Booking Reference etc so presume that you did that when communicating with BA - otherwise you will be waiting a long time for a reply.

Hope that helps you.

Hi Ian,

Yes thanks - I am at work so was quicking skimming in between screens so was unable to be thorough, I tend to need to do things then and there or I won't get it done at all knowing me. I provided all the details for the flight on the site, so they will be able to find me thankfully. Appreciate all your help, you obviously know your stuff and are very kind to help out.

Thanks
Sarah

robot1000

Had a 9.30am flight booked last Sunday flight to Tel Aviv on British Airways, but it was cancelled due to issues with 2 planes. The first plane had a problem with the hydraulics and after 4 hours, we were informed they were trying to use another plane. After another hour and a half we were told there was also an issue with the second plane and that they were going to cancel the flight. They booked us onto an evening flight with ELAL which took off at 10.30pm.

I've looked online and it seems we are entitled to 600 euros each, however I read in places that they can claim it was 'outside their control'. I just wondered how they would be able to claim that if the issue was to do with the plane, as if there would have been proper maintenance the issue would probably not have occurred.

I just wondered whether anyone had been given the compensation straight out after going through the complaints section of their website: http://www.britishairways.com/travel/euclaimnor/public/en_gb, and if not, is it a difficult battle to fight?

Thanks in advance

richardw

robot1000 wrote: »

I just wondered how they would be able to claim that if the issue was to do with the plane, as if there would have been proper maintenance the issue would probably not have occurred.

Wallentin Hermann v Alitalia may satisfy a bit of your curiosity http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/mar/21/airline-ticket-justice-compensation

ian41

robot1000 wrote: »

I just wondered whether anyone had been given the compensation straight out after going through the complaints section of their website: http://www.britishairways.com/travel/euclaimnor/public/en_gb, and if not, is it a difficult battle to fight?

Thanks in advance

A few years ago it was not impossible but now unless you are a regular first or business class member of the BAEC, you will have to battle to get compensation. It is not difficult per-se but is time consuming as all airlines now realise that customers who are affected can be put off very easily. You will have to persevere and be prepared to take legal action against BA.

Help and guidance is available but if you have legal expenses insurance (in a travel or home contents policy) you could get a lawyer to do this on your hehalf.

ian41

This will be of particular interest to the reported thousands waiting to either file claims or take legal action in the UK, following eligible flight delays in excess of 3 hours.

There is a hearing listed at the ECJ for 20 March 2012 for Case C-581/10 (which now consists of joined Cases C-629/10 and C-581/10). It is Case C-629/10 which is of particular interest to those passengers on flights delayed in excess of 3 hours and claiming for compensation in the UK.

In this Case, the ECJ has been asked for clarification ("reference for a preliminary ruling") on specific points following what is known as the Sturgeon ruling.

It might not be the end of the matter but it should be the beginning of the end and should provide some visibility.

In view of its importance, this has been posted twice - once on the main forum and this post under the compensation thread.