Compensation for delayed flights Discussion Area

robot1000

stickyfingers85 wrote: »

Hello, i'm trying to work out if my flight would be classed as delayed or cancelled. My situation is this:

Flight CX252 with Cathay Pacific from London Heathrow to Hong Kong

I checked in, boarded the flight and on taxi to the runway the captain announced that there was a fuel leak.

We taxied back to the gate and had to sit on the plane for almost 6 hours why they attempted to fix the problem.

Eventually the captain announced that the flight would now leave tomorrow and that they would put us all in a hotel over night.

I stayed in the hotel and took the flight the next day, which was now called CX252D

Would this be classed as a cancellation or a delay? I think its a cancellation as the original flight failed to take off, but im worried it will only be classed as a delay because its the same flight number - "D" for delayed

Any ideas?

I also can't find out how i claim the compensation. I contacted Cathay at Heathrow and they said i have to do it online, but on the website there is only a feedback form

Thanks in advance

There is no legal difference between the two. Have a look at:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2211&pageid=12716

ian41

robot1000 wrote: »

There is no legal difference between the two. Have a look at:

http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2211&pageid=12716

Sorry robot1000 but there is a significant legal difference between what is a delay and cancellation and the relevant protection for passengers.

Not for the first time (nor the last I suspect), the CAA post is misleading.

Delays and cancellations are different - they are not the same but the compensation levels are similar (assuming that the awaited ECJ ruling rejects the UK airlines requests for clarification re delay compensation).

The key difference as at today in compensation terms only is that claims for cancellation in the UK can be actioned but claims for long delay in the UK are awaiting the ECJ ruling

Please read the original legislation EC Reg 261/2004 and the November 2009 Sturgeon ruling. The links are below

EC Reg 261/2004

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:EN:HTML

Sturgeon judgment

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?docid=73703&mode=req&pageIndex=1&dir=&occ=first&part=1&text=261%2F2004&doclang=EN&cid=444628#ctx1

robot1000

ian41 wrote: »

Sorry robot1000 but there is a significant legal difference between what is a delay and cancellation and the relevant protection for passengers.

Not for the first time (nor the last I suspect), the CAA post is misleading.

Delays and cancellations are different - they are not the same but the compensation levels are similar (assuming that the awaited ECJ ruling rejects the UK airlines requests for clarification re delay compensation).

Please read the original legislation EC Reg 261/2004 and the November 2009 Sturgeon ruling. The links are below

EC Reg 261/2004

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004R0261:EN:HTML

Sturgeon judgment

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?docid=73703&mode=req&pageIndex=1&dir=&occ=first&part=1&text=261%2F2004&doclang=EN&cid=444628#ctx1

Just had a skim through those articles and they seem to provide the same compensation whether it exceeded a certain time period (for a delay) or if the flight was cancelled.

ian41

ih8modem wrote: »

My wife recently booked on flight BA57 to Johannesburg. the flight was scheduled for 20:45 but eventually took off at 22:47. Shortly after takeoff there was an engine failure on the aircraft, and it returned to LHR after an hour of dumping fuel.

So now my question is : What sort of compensation is she entitled to ?

If I understand this article correctly, she should also be entitled to claim €600 from BA.

Thanks for reading

This is how I would approach it as a layman.

Assuming the first flight was cancelled, in theory your wife is entitled to a claim of Euro 600 but it is subject to an airline defence of extraordinary circumstances which BA has to prove rather than claim.

The first step is for your wife to write to BA. A suggested draft can be found below but do remember to fill in the XXXXXs!

Dear Sirs

Insert here your original flight numbers, date, e-ticket number and booking reference/PRN

Under EC Reg 261/2004 Articles 5 and 7, and following the cancellation of Flight BA57 on 22 Febraury 2012, I am claiming Euro 600 compensation.

Should you wish to claim a defence of extraordinary circumstances, I ask you to submit proof to me that meets or exceeds the very high standards set out by the ECJ in both the Wallentin-Hermann and Sturgeon rulings dated 22/12/2008 and 19/11/2009 respectively. In this context, it is insufficient to merely claim extraordinary circumstances, as the Regulation requires you to prove it and I would like to examine the robustness of such evidence.

If you fail to provide me with answers or co-operate with me fully, I must also draw your attention to the relevant Practice Direction concerning pre-action conduct prior to court proceedings. If necessary, I will produce copies of our correspondence to date to the Court.

In summary, if you wish to propose a defence of extraordinary circumstances, please provide me with the full details as requested above. Alternatively, please send me a cheque for £XXX.XX in full settlement of the compensation due (i.e. Euro 600 at the ECB official exchange rate of 0.XXXXX GBP = 1 Euro on XX XXXXXX 20XX (insert date of flight). Either way, I am giving you 14 days from today's date to reply. Failing that, I reserve the right to take any appropriate legal action at any time to recover this sum without further notice.


Yours faithfully

XXXXXXX

I am not a betting man but with an engine failure I suspect that BA will claim extraordinary circumstances and then attempt to prove it. Clearly it was an unexpected event as it happened after take off. I have seen stronger cases fail but let's wait and see.

You can either post or email through the BA website. Suggest you post back when you have BA's defence.

Please either post an acknowledgement post or hit the Thanks button so that I know you have read this reply!

ian41

rich987652 wrote: »

My situation in brief:

Wife Booked on US Airways flight from Gatwick to Charlotte, with further onward connection to Baton Rouge on Sunday 26th Feb 2012.
Is the imminent case only applicable to delay and not cancellations?
Do I submit a claim to the airline (I have an e-ticket from them) or the agent?

Any claim is against US Airways and claims for cancellation can proceed in the UK. Only claims for long delays are currently stayed.

May I suggest that you write to US Airways using my suggested letter in the previous post but changing the details of course and change 14 to 21 days!

Again please post an acknowledgement or hit the Thanks button so that I know that you have read and actioned this post.

Don't forget to come back and tell us what the reply said.

ian41

stickyfingers85 wrote: »

Hello, i'm trying to work out if my flight would be classed as delayed or cancelled. My situation is this:

Flight CX252 with Cathay Pacific from London Heathrow to Hong Kong

I checked in, boarded the flight and on taxi to the runway the captain announced that there was a fuel leak.

We taxied back to the gate and had to sit on the plane for almost 6 hours why they attempted to fix the problem.

Eventually the captain announced that the flight would now leave tomorrow and that they would put us all in a hotel over night.

I stayed in the hotel and took the flight the next day, which was now called CX252D

Would this be classed as a cancellation or a delay? I think its a cancellation as the original flight failed to take off, but im worried it will only be classed as a delay because its the same flight number - "D" for delayed

Any ideas?

I also can't find out how i claim the compensation. I contacted Cathay at Heathrow and they said i have to do it online, but on the website there is only a feedback form

Thanks in advance

To help you decide whether the flight was delayed or cancelled, we need to know the date and time of the original flight and the time of the departure the next day.

It is likely to be a delayed flight but if you give chapter and verse, I will try to get it checked.

Despite the reply from robot1000, it makes a huge difference if it is a delayed or cancelled flight. A cancelled flight also gives additional passenger protection eg Article 8 provisions

If the flight is cancelled, then you can make an immediate claim from the airline and if you wish, take legal action through the small claims court again immediately.

Conversely, if it is a long delay, then you need to wait for the result of the ECJ deliberations on Case C-629/10 before you can claim from the airline. We have been waiting well over a year and there is a hearing in March 2012. We could get a decision then or maybe not until 2013 or 2014!

Whether it is a cancellation or long delay, the airline can put forward a defence of extraordinary circumstances and if it can prove it, compensation will not be paid.

If you give further information, I will check out the flight data.

ian41

robot1000 wrote: »

Just had a skim through those articles and they seem to provide the same compensation whether it exceeded a certain time period (for a delay) or if the flight was cancelled.

It is not just a question of the amount of compensation - which you would be aware of if you had read the two legal documents and were aware of the legal stay for delay claims in the UK.

However if you are capable of

1. Reading my reply

2. "skimming through" one piece of complex consumer legislation with many nuances

3. Reading the full Sturgeon Judgment

4. Understanding points 1 - 3 and responding to me

all inside 4 minutes, then we would be in the presence of an absolute genius.

Unfortunately, you read the headlines, ignored the detail and therefore your reply was incorrect and misleading.

rich987652

ian41 wrote: »

Any claim is against US Airways and claims for cancellation can proceed in the UK. Only claims for long delays are currently stayed.

May I suggest that you write to US Airways using my suggested letter in the previous post but changing the details of course and change 14 to 21 days!

Again please post an acknowledgement or hit the Thanks button so that I know that you have read and actioned this post.

Don't forget to come back and tell us what the reply said.

Ian, many thanks for your advice.

I have written the letter and will send it tomorrow. According to the US Airways website, all complaints should be sent to their address in Phoenix, Arizona and so I will do that. They do have a online form that can be completed, but I'm assuming I may need a letter in case I need it in the future.

They also have a comment saying:
*EU residents: US Airways processes all written customer feedback in our headquarters location in Tempe, Arizona, U.S

This is slightly ambiguous as the mailing address is in Phoenix but this refers to Tempe. I assume I should still write to the address in Phoenix, but any response will come from Tempe.

ih8modem

ian41 wrote: »

This is how I would approach it as a layman.

Assuming the first flight was cancelled, in theory your wife is entitled to a claim of Euro 600 but it is subject to an airline defence of extraordinary circumstances which BA has to prove rather than claim.

The first step is for your wife to write to BA. A suggested draft can be found below but do remember to fill in the XXXXXs!

Dear Sirs

Insert here your original flight numbers, date, e-ticket number and booking reference/PRN

Under EC Reg 261/2004 Articles 5 and 7, and following the cancellation of Flight BA57 on 22 Febraury 2012, I am claiming Euro 600 compensation.

Should you wish to claim a defence of extraordinary circumstances, I ask you to submit proof to me that meets or exceeds the very high standards set out by the ECJ in both the Wallentin-Hermann and Sturgeon rulings dated 22/12/2008 and 19/11/2009 respectively. In this context, it is insufficient to merely claim extraordinary circumstances, as the Regulation requires you to prove it and I would like to examine the robustness of such evidence.

If you fail to provide me with answers or co-operate with me fully, I must also draw your attention to the relevant Practice Direction concerning pre-action conduct prior to court proceedings. If necessary, I will produce copies of our correspondence to date to the Court.

In summary, if you wish to propose a defence of extraordinary circumstances, please provide me with the full details as requested above. Alternatively, please send me a cheque for £XXX.XX in full settlement of the compensation due (i.e. Euro 600 at the ECB official exchange rate of 0.XXXXX GBP = 1 Euro on XX XXXXXX 20XX (insert date of flight). Either way, I am giving you 14 days from today's date to reply. Failing that, I reserve the right to take any appropriate legal action at any time to recover this sum without further notice.


Yours faithfully

XXXXXXX

I am not a betting man but with an engine failure I suspect that BA will claim extraordinary circumstances and then attempt to prove it. Clearly it was an unexpected event as it happened after take off. I have seen stronger cases fail but let's wait and see.

You can either post or email through the BA website. Suggest you post back when you have BA's defence.

Please either post an acknowledgement post or hit the Thanks button so that I know you have read this reply!

Many thanks ian41. We will follow this up and make sure to post the outcome. I suspect as you do BA will claim extraordinary circumstances.

One extra point, whilst the two hour delay was happening, there were men with torches constantly examining the same engine that eventually failed. While I am pretty sure we will never know this (or be able to prove it) I suspect BA has pre-warning this engine was not 100% to start with. My wife arrives home tommorrow and I will get the full story from her then, but it will of course only be suspicions and hearsay.

ian41

ih8modem wrote: »

I suspect as you do BA will claim extraordinary circumstances.

Yes but don't forget they have to prove it. Their first response will be a bland headline claim; it will follow the usual ritual of bluff and denial before we get any real detail.

One extra point, whilst the two hour delay was happening, there were men with torches constantly examining the same engine that eventually failed. While I am pretty sure we will never know this (or be able to prove it) I suspect BA has pre-warning this engine was not 100% to start with. My wife arrives home tommorrow and I will get the full story from her then, but it will of course only be suspicions and hearsay.

We could bring the engine inspection up later if we believe it is sensible to do so. All it would show is that they believed at that time that the engine was OK and both the captain and the duty engineering boss signed off before departure. If they had not done so, it would have been a delay initially but the cause would have been identical - and we would be left contesting the same "extraordinary circumstances" defence I suspect.