Economy 10 & Smart Meters

Ildhund

Phones4Chris said:

It's the Aclara SGM1422-B that @PZ19 has got. I guess it's the "adapter" I believe it's called, that's the software interface between a particular meter's data and the supplier. 

Thanks.

Some years ago, I discovered that my SMETS1 E7 meter started misbehaving after DCC had 'Enrolled and Adopted' it ('E&A'). It turned out that DCC couldn't cope with the first register tier being offpeak and the second peak. The supplier (OVO) originally said they could simply reverse the registers, but then they found they couldn't. After several months, a complaint and an Ombudsman intervention, the meter was exchanged for an Aclara SGM 1416-B like yours as the only solution to the problem. If DCC is so sensitive to such a simple configuration variance, I wouldn't be surprised if a twin element (2E) meter like the SGM 1422-B gave them indigestion, too.

I have a vague feeling that OVO, having inherited SSE's stable of hundreds of thousands of RTS systems, many of them running two-meter systems like THTC, first experimented with a 2E solution as a likely smart replica for two separate meters (one delivering peak and offpeak electricity to domestic appliances etc. and storage heating, the other 24-hour heating at a rate higher than offpeak but lower than peak). I don't know why these experiments failed, but it could well have been the DCC inflexibility aforementioned. I'm not at all surprised that EDF don't know how to make 2E meters work on the UK smart meter network.

Phones4Chris

Ildhund said:

Phones4Chris said:

It's the Aclara SGM1422-B that @PZ19 has got. I guess it's the "adapter" I believe it's called, that's the software interface between a particular meter's data and the supplier. 

Thanks.

Some years ago, I discovered that my SMETS1 E7 meter started misbehaving after DCC had 'Enrolled and Adopted' it ('E&A'). It turned out that DCC couldn't cope with the first register tier being offpeak and the second peak. The supplier (OVO) originally said they could simply reverse the registers, but then they found they couldn't. After several months, a complaint and an Ombudsman intervention, the meter was exchanged for an Aclara SGM 1416-B like yours as the only solution to the problem. If DCC is so sensitive to such a simple configuration variance, I wouldn't be surprised if a twin element (2E) meter like the SGM 1422-B gave them indigestion, too.

I have a vague feeling that OVO, having inherited SSE's stable of hundreds of thousands of RTS systems, many of them running two-meter systems like THTC, first experimented with a 2E solution as a likely smart replica for two separate meters (one delivering peak and offpeak electricity to domestic appliances etc. and storage heating, the other 24-hour heating at a rate higher than offpeak but lower than peak). I don't know why these experiments failed, but it could well have been the DCC inflexibility aforementioned. I'm not at all surprised that EDF don't know how to make 2E meters work on the UK smart meter network.

Ha (or not in reality).
As for the first highlighted comment, you could well be right, which is why I was interested in what the Bright App may do.
As for the 2nd point, I get the impression (rightly or wrongly) that many suppliers are struggling to cope with Smart Meter installations because of the RTS situation and their smart meter teams can't cope, which is why perhaps a lot of what might be regarded as "routine" smart meter stuff is being dealt with (often wrongly) by first line support who don't know enough! When there's something "out of the ordinary" (eg. a newer meter of which there is little experience) then things go t**s up as it's maybe not passed to a smart meter team in a timely manner.
As for these 2E meters, I really don't see what the problem is apart from the fact they don't seem to have got the correct software to handle them. On a standard E7/E10 installation I don't see why just two registers are used as with other "normal" installations!
EDIT: Ignore the comment about only using just two registers. My brain was not engaged at the time - The 5th port which supplies the off-peak consumer unit(s) is electrically powered by the 2nd element, independent of the first, and presumably the meter cannot be programmed to use the same registers for both elements. I'll give a more detailed (hopefully simple) comment later on.

Scot_39

Phones4Chris said:

@Ildhund It's the Aclara SGM1422-B that @PZ19 has got. Apart from knowing what it is, there's very little practical tech experience of them on here.
@PZ19 It's the model that is the problem that EDF are having trouble with. I guess it's the "adapter" I believe it's called, that's the software interface between a particular meter's data and the supplier. I had an Aclara SGM1416-B installed by EDF on an E7 tariff just over 3 years ago, had no problems with it.
IIRC you said you didn't get an IHD as I was going to suggest try signing up for the Bright App, to see if you can get usage data from it. This is easy to do if you have an IHD as you use it's GUID to sign up. Without that, there's a few more hoops to jump through. Might be worth a go, out of interest.

The 1416 B is single element - there is only a primary set of readings - which covers total energy

FRom looking through the specs for the Aclara's and then one of SEC smets2 meter data parameters specs for smets 2 - which I never did go back and reread carefully - it struck me the 1422 b with it being twin element 

- there is both the equivalent primary set - but this now AFAIK only covers the port 4 energy use - nominally the 24.7 live feed

and 

a secondary set (almost as complete for full flecxbility - but subtly different in its scope from some SEC smets2 spec wording) set of possible readings from it - for the 5th port - nominally restricted meter feed.

At a guess Id venture sounds as if EDF - probably didnt realise the difference - and so havent extended their billing system and data calls to the DCC - to fully recover the data.

I wonder if any of the apps would handle the secondary element (do they handle 3 phase - single element per phase I would guess being the standard ?)

But I believe theres a "primary secondary total" array for register billing referenced in the Aclara specs - its been a few months since looked at the 1422 section -  in places for some of the readings.

Not sure was - I cannt remember if there was - anything adding the 48 1/2 hrly used by some TOU for total 1/2 hrly.

PZ19

What I don’t understand is when they installed it, it was correctly providing two readings. Peak and off peak.  Now I very much doubt the off peak was at the right time (probably in my favour to be honest) but now I have 4 readings!  How is that possible?  I have a TOU Rate 1 and TOU Rate 2 (which I beieve are both peak readings) and then a 2nd TOU Rate 1 and 2nd TOU Rate 2, which I believe are both off peak.

it doesn’t look like getting fixed before the storage heaters need to go on, so the main thing I am concerned about (and probably the other 1200 accounts) is will there be enough heat to provide sufficient heat and also at the correct off peak times and tariffs.  Bear in mind we will have had the July and October tariff change also before this is fixed

Scot_39

I would hope they have set the ALCS correctly.  

That shouldn't necessarily differ - but what might is the second set of tariff timings and the rates sent to the meter to match them on meter / ihd pricing (but probably not to bill you correctly).

And they are likely therefore asking for day / night on primary meter / port 4 - and day / night on secondary meter / port 5 registers.

I'd guess I'd be tempted to switch one heater on for one night and check the four individual and 2 total - or is it only one total - readings before and after.

https://www.sseenergysolutions.co.uk/meter-manuals

Links to - and this isn't a nice user friendly manual - but it lists some of the data you can access on the meter - including the secondary TOU matrix register readings.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/pwxulcskoycq/1wwcrujxb6xTGfedBZ40kg/c8dcd3dbb1654a23c933d9bcf13fe5e1/Aclara-SMETS2-Single-Phase-Electric.pdf

The wiring / metering schematics show the split for the metering (circle with diagonal line like a slotted screw head) locations on p8

On simple meters it seems to scroll through upto 4 tou registers on you tube vids etc - and way down that list in the manual there are 4 TOU registers for the secondary available on the 1422.

You'd have to read the totals the normal tou and the secondary tou I guess to try and make sense of what is registering power when - and whether they add as expected working or not.

PZ19

Good idea that Scot_39 I will try the heater on low setting one night when no water on and see what moves

Scot_39

PZ19 said:

Good idea that Scot_39 I will try the heater on low setting one night when no water on and see what moves

Even on low - it should take a reasonable charge on the first night.

Phones4Chris

I've added an edit to my previous post, brain was clearly not engaged. That's because the 5th port which supplies the off-peak consumer unit(s)/off-peak equipment is electrically powered by the 2nd element (as shown on p8 of the manual linked in @Scot_39 's post). Although I'd seen it previously I've lost my link to it since an OS update on my computer! It presumably HAS to use its own registers. Therefore on a simple E7 tariff I'd expect one of the registers (possibly R3) not to increment at all and possibly R4 to increment only when the ALCS is active for power to the storage heaters and off-peak water heating. R1 & R2 would increment during peak and off-peak times for usage on the 24/7 domestic circuits.
I'll try and give a slightly more technical reply later.

Scot_39

Let's see what OP can find - but those secondary registers way down the list in that Aclara manual after all sorts of kVAR / kVA and quadrant (lagging leading loads etc data) most domestic users shouldn't have to care about (but manh medium and large EIS industries have to)

PZ19

I did notice earlier that when the water was being heated, on the meter it had the correct tariff 14p kWh..however I don’t think the hours that off peak is working correctly.  It hasn’t come on at all tonight, EDF told me it should be 2100-2300.  Definitely not on now..I have put storage heater (and turned off water) on tonight so let’s see what happens.  The off peak wasn’t on at midnight or 1am last night, so be interested to see what times it does come on.  I suspect it’s only those hours up to 9am, but no idea what time it starts. I don’t think that’s anywhere enough to provide hearing..we shall see