Economy 10 & Smart Meters

PZ19

Success, the storage heater is warm this morning so no idea why it wasn’t yesterday.  It looks like my e7 times are 0145-0845, as I happened to be awake at 1.45 and saw the water heater switch light on.

as for the meter readings. The Second TOU Rate 1 has increased 5 kWh and the Second TOU Rate 2 has gone up 4 kWh so total of 9kwh to heat from stone cold the heater for 5 hours..which sounds about right. Still not entirely sure why there are 2, second TOU rate readings, although @Phones4Chris your explanation makes sense, but like you say one of them shouldn’t be going up cos there’s no electric supplied peak to water and storage heaters. I will ask EDF the question now I have carried out this experiment 

Ildhund

PZ19 said:

It looks like my e7 times are 0145-0845, as I happened to be awake at 1.45 and saw the water heater switch light on.

Interesting. I've been recommending people to check their precise switching time delay so they know when not to have power-hungry appliances running. Yours is the first I remember seeing that is above 10 minutes, even though the maximum under SMETS2 is 30 minutes*. 

---

• The number of seconds' delay is unique to the meter. It is the product of a random number between 0 and 1 built-in to the meter in the factory and a number between 1 and 1799 entered by the engineer on installation. It could be that my supplier's and some others' engineers are trained to use 600 or below for whatever reason. Anyone know?

Scot_39

From your post on 12th it looked as if primary rate 1 pricing tables and your alcs were in sync - at least at the end of the window - both switching at around 845 am.

You also state that it was secondary tou 2 register that incremented the 1 kWh with the hw on.  Suggesting that tou2 are your off peak registers.

The fact that secondary tou1 register incremented 5 kWh would therefore suggest its timings are wrong and its incrementing potentially peak rate bilking - when your hesting is on - and only 4kWh is going into secondary tou register 2.

The total power at 424 in one set - allowing for rounding down on individuals did match the total of all 4 readings - primary tou1 tou2 and secondary tou1 and tou2. 

So yes you have 2 2 rrgisters bilking configs - primary and alcs look like e7 - at least at the 845 am switch off  peak to peak.

Secondary look still a bit of a mess - as on a two rate tariff properly synced with alcs - so only pay off peak for restricted circuit heating - there should ideally be no secondary tou1.

And the meter pricing active rate 2 0.000p/kWh - so that would also suggest the meter still not fully configured and ihd and meter estimated pricing (£28.24) could be meaningless (did that 0.000p change at 845). 0x4KWh = 0p missing from total etc. Last night.

Edit : justva though does it change at using the ildhund tines plus your 15m  0115 0615 am and pm 215 515 915 1115 even  to reflect 0p for 0 intended use say and say 14.7p for off peak intended use ?

Hardly surprising perhaps as seems clear edf weren't ready to deal with it.  And potentially updating parts of the puzzle as they go along (your comments re had 2 readings now 4 etc).

But you really need them to explain how they will be billing your 4 readings now.

Particularly with regard to secondary 5 kWh / 4 kWh split.  Which I think could be a problem.  But until they tell you how they are billing those registers..... 

And to resolve this fully you might need to get through fist level customer service to get real answers. So id add that 5 / 4 kWh observation to any running complaint.

If edf are going to offer you a complex tariff treating both "meters" differently - that would work for you - tgen you might want to persevere.

But if they are going to treat both meters as e7 - id be tempted to say they have had enough time to resolve and demand they fit a meter they can configure and bill properly - before heating season adds 10s kWh per day into the use mix.

Edit 2
And even more so if you would like to leave them soon - to switch suppliers - as other suppliers are potentially going to have similar issues dealing with its twin element metering.

(although with e10 in the requested mix, like Rosie1001, even a single element seems beyond them at times,) 

PZ19

Scot_39 said:

From your post on 12th it looked as if primary rate 1 pricing tables and your alcs were in sync - at least at the end of the window - both switching at around 845 am.

You also state that it was secondary tou 2 register that incremented the 1 kWh with the hw on.  Suggesting that tou2 are your off peak registers.

The fact that secondary tou1 register incremented 5 kWh would therefore suggest its timings are wrong and its incrementing potentially peak rate bilking - when your hesting is on - and only 4kWh is going into secondary tou register 2.

The total power at 424 in one set - allowing for rounding down on individuals did match the total of all 4 readings - primary tou1 tou2 and secondary tou1 and tou2. 

So yes you have 2 2 rrgisters bilking configs - primary and alcs look like e7 - at least at the 845 am switch off  peak to peak.

Secondary look still a bit of a mess - as on a two rate tariff properly synced with alcs - so only pay off peak for restricted circuit heating - there should ideally be no secondary tou1.

And the meter pricing active rate 2 0.000p/kWh - so that would also suggest the meter still not fully configured and ihd and meter estimated pricing (£28.24) could be meaningless (did that 0.000p change at 845). 0x4KWh = 0p missing from total etc. Last night.

Edit : justva though does it change at using the ildhund tines plus your 15m  0115 0615 am and pm 215 515 915 1115 even  to reflect 0p for 0 intended use say and say 14.7p for off peak intended use ?

Hardly surprising perhaps as seems clear edf weren't ready to deal with it.  And potentially updating parts of the puzzle as they go along (your comments re had 2 readings now 4 etc).

But you really need them to explain how they will be billing your 4 readings now.

Particularly with regard to secondary 5 kWh / 4 kWh split.  Which I think could be a problem.  But until they tell you how they are billing those registers..... 

And to resolve this fully you might need to get through fist level customer service to get real answers. So id add that 5 / 4 kWh observation to any running complaint.

If edf are going to offer you a complex tariff treating both "meters" differently - that would work for you - tgen you might want to persevere.

But if they are going to treat both meters as e7 - id be tempted to say they have had enough time to resolve and demand they fit a meter they can configure and bill properly - before hearing season adds 10s kWh per day into the use mix.

(although with e10 in the requested mix, like Rosie1001, even a single element seems beyond them at times) 

I’ve literally just sent them an email now I understand what is going on, so let’s see what they come back with.  I also now have access to bright app and data is Being sent to them so that’s handy, although the cost seems a little on low side but that’s probably because I don’t do midnight to midnight calculations.. on bright they say off peak is 0030-0730.  Although it does appear on further investigation Bright is getting the water/heat readings

I think they are supposed be giving me 8 hours off peak at various times once everything works.. if they can eradicate the water/heat peak usage that’s a start and like you say that needs sorting before colder weather arrives.  To me that sounds an easy fix, just to get the times sent to the meter to be correct..I have already told them that Reading needs billing at an off peak tariff

Scot_39

Ildhund said:

PZ19 said:

It looks like my e7 times are 0145-0845, as I happened to be awake at 1.45 and saw the water heater switch light on.

Interesting. I've been recommending people to check their precise switching time delay so they know when not to have power-hungry appliances running. Yours is the first I remember seeing that is above 10 minutes, even though the maximum under SMETS2 is 30 minutes*. 

---

• The number of seconds' delay is unique to the meter. It is the product of a random number between 0 and 1 built-in to the meter in the factory and a number between 1 and 1799 entered by the engineer on installation. It could be that my supplier's and some others' engineers are trained to use 600 or below for whatever reason. Anyone know?

In the Rosie1001 or the snug problem threads iirc at one time did suggest an 11min example - i remember crunching the 9p to 9.x p / 1x.x p for 9m and then 11m for the overhang at end of the 1 hr and 6 hr sessions.

Never really understood why went 0 to 30 min - my old rts had a +/- 15 min sticker on it.

Most respond within 15m is the upto figure quoted by Octopus in Snug faq iirc though  and a couple of users have suggested their snug delay was the same as their e7 operation before - but never seen that confirmed anywhere..

Scot_39

PZ19 said:

Scot_39 said:

From your post on 12th it looked as if primary rate 1 pricing tables and your alcs were in sync - at least at the end of the window - both switching at around 845 am.

You also state that it was secondary tou 2 register that incremented the 1 kWh with the hw on.  Suggesting that tou2 are your off peak registers.

The fact that secondary tou1 register incremented 5 kWh would therefore suggest its timings are wrong and its incrementing potentially peak rate bilking - when your hesting is on - and only 4kWh is going into secondary tou register 2.

The total power at 424 in one set - allowing for rounding down on individuals did match the total of all 4 readings - primary tou1 tou2 and secondary tou1 and tou2. 

So yes you have 2 2 rrgisters bilking configs - primary and alcs look like e7 - at least at the 845 am switch off  peak to peak.

Secondary look still a bit of a mess - as on a two rate tariff properly synced with alcs - so only pay off peak for restricted circuit heating - there should ideally be no secondary tou1.

And the meter pricing active rate 2 0.000p/kWh - so that would also suggest the meter still not fully configured and ihd and meter estimated pricing (£28.24) could be meaningless (did that 0.000p change at 845). 0x4KWh = 0p missing from total etc. Last night.

Edit : justva though does it change at using the ildhund tines plus your 15m  0115 0615 am and pm 215 515 915 1115 even  to reflect 0p for 0 intended use say and say 14.7p for off peak intended use ?

Hardly surprising perhaps as seems clear edf weren't ready to deal with it.  And potentially updating parts of the puzzle as they go along (your comments re had 2 readings now 4 etc).

But you really need them to explain how they will be billing your 4 readings now.

Particularly with regard to secondary 5 kWh / 4 kWh split.  Which I think could be a problem.  But until they tell you how they are billing those registers..... 

And to resolve this fully you might need to get through fist level customer service to get real answers. So id add that 5 / 4 kWh observation to any running complaint.

If edf are going to offer you a complex tariff treating both "meters" differently - that would work for you - tgen you might want to persevere.

But if they are going to treat both meters as e7 - id be tempted to say they have had enough time to resolve and demand they fit a meter they can configure and bill properly - before hearing season adds 10s kWh per day into the use mix.

(although with e10 in the requested mix, like Rosie1001, even a single element seems beyond them at times) 

I’ve literally just sent them an email now I understand what is going on, so let’s see what they come back with.  I also now have access to bright app and data is Being sent to them so that’s handy, although the cost seems a little on low side but that’s probably because I don’t do midnight to midnight calculations.. on bright they say off peak is 0030-0730.  Although it does appear on further investigation Bright is getting the water/heat readings

I think they are supposed be giving me 8 hours off peak at various times once everything works.. if they can eradicate the water/heat peak usage that’s a start and like you say that needs sorting before colder weather arrives.  To me that sounds an easy fix, just to get the times sent to the meter to be correct..I have already told them that Reading needs billing at an off peak tariff

I dupont use bright, but meters iirc operate in utc (gmt) time all the time internally.

There might be a switch for display purposes to adjust to dst.

Are you seeing e.g. the 9kWh in registers if ig has them all and 1/2 hrly data, or just one of them  ? 

The half hour logging data set times aren't influenced by in your case the meter 15m offset.  (Which is what impacts Snug Octopus 9p to actual true rate for those with larger offsets)

PZ19

Scot_39 said:

PZ19 said:

Scot_39 said:

From your post on 12th it looked as if primary rate 1 pricing tables and your alcs were in sync - at least at the end of the window - both switching at around 845 am.

You also state that it was secondary tou 2 register that incremented the 1 kWh with the hw on.  Suggesting that tou2 are your off peak registers.

The fact that secondary tou1 register incremented 5 kWh would therefore suggest its timings are wrong and its incrementing potentially peak rate bilking - when your hesting is on - and only 4kWh is going into secondary tou register 2.

The total power at 424 in one set - allowing for rounding down on individuals did match the total of all 4 readings - primary tou1 tou2 and secondary tou1 and tou2. 

So yes you have 2 2 rrgisters bilking configs - primary and alcs look like e7 - at least at the 845 am switch off  peak to peak.

Secondary look still a bit of a mess - as on a two rate tariff properly synced with alcs - so only pay off peak for restricted circuit heating - there should ideally be no secondary tou1.

And the meter pricing active rate 2 0.000p/kWh - so that would also suggest the meter still not fully configured and ihd and meter estimated pricing (£28.24) could be meaningless (did that 0.000p change at 845). 0x4KWh = 0p missing from total etc. Last night.

Edit : justva though does it change at using the ildhund tines plus your 15m  0115 0615 am and pm 215 515 915 1115 even  to reflect 0p for 0 intended use say and say 14.7p for off peak intended use ?

Hardly surprising perhaps as seems clear edf weren't ready to deal with it.  And potentially updating parts of the puzzle as they go along (your comments re had 2 readings now 4 etc).

But you really need them to explain how they will be billing your 4 readings now.

Particularly with regard to secondary 5 kWh / 4 kWh split.  Which I think could be a problem.  But until they tell you how they are billing those registers..... 

And to resolve this fully you might need to get through fist level customer service to get real answers. So id add that 5 / 4 kWh observation to any running complaint.

If edf are going to offer you a complex tariff treating both "meters" differently - that would work for you - tgen you might want to persevere.

But if they are going to treat both meters as e7 - id be tempted to say they have had enough time to resolve and demand they fit a meter they can configure and bill properly - before hearing season adds 10s kWh per day into the use mix.

(although with e10 in the requested mix, like Rosie1001, even a single element seems beyond them at times) 

I’ve literally just sent them an email now I understand what is going on, so let’s see what they come back with.  I also now have access to bright app and data is Being sent to them so that’s handy, although the cost seems a little on low side but that’s probably because I don’t do midnight to midnight calculations.. on bright they say off peak is 0030-0730.  Although it does appear on further investigation Bright is getting the water/heat readings

I think they are supposed be giving me 8 hours off peak at various times once everything works.. if they can eradicate the water/heat peak usage that’s a start and like you say that needs sorting before colder weather arrives.  To me that sounds an easy fix, just to get the times sent to the meter to be correct..I have already told them that Reading needs billing at an off peak tariff

I dupont use bright, but meters iirc operate in utc (gmt) time all the time internally.

There might be a switch for display purposes to adjust to dst.

Are you seeing e.g. the 9kWh in registers if ig has them all and 1/2 hrly data, or just one of them  ? 

The half hour logging data set times aren't influenced by in your case the meter 15m offset.  (Which is what impacts Snug Octopus 9p to actual true rate for those with larger offsets)

Bright is just showing daily usage at moment and what looks like only the normal use, not the water/heat usage.

after I tuned off the storage heater at 0645 this morning I put the water on, and the 2 units used for that went onto the “peak” Reading for the water/heat circuit, so there is clearly a disconnect between the times in the meter and the billing period.  I am wondering if it should be 0030-0730 off peak like Bright has, but the meter is allowing usage up until 0845..so the extra 75 mins is what is being showed as second TOU RAte 1 peak.  Let’s see what edf come back with next week, but I am getting to understand more about what’s going on from yours and others help on here, which is progress.

Scot_39

Can a Bright user confirm if they time shift for GMT / DST by default or not.

[I can only guess the Bright 00:30 to 07:30 is the nominal - assuming no 15m preset - in GMT time - not current DST.]

And that PZ19 is seeing that physically right now as 01:45 to 08:45 ALCS switching / tariff swtiching on any external clocks.

I thought you said the other morning in c820am - post - that it was the secondary tou rate 2 that incremented with you hot water on for 1/2 hour.

So that suggests the timing at that point was correct - if in fact tou2 is off peak.

I suspect it is more likely they have done something like programmed a timing table for the 8 hours or 10 hours - say 3-5 hours off peak overnight - when your HW / heating devices would be active on E7 ALCS calendar (the 0145 to 0845) - so catching some of the use in secondary TOU1 and secondary TOU2.

Can you remember what times EDF told you your 8 hours off peak heating might be / would be ?

The reason I ask is to try and get to bottom of the 5/4 kWh TOU register split for your heater on for 5 hours (9kWh /5 hrs = nominal if constant 1.8kWh - being a small-medium sized NSH similar to my 2 hall heaters - about half the power of my one living room heater (3.5-3.6 kW input)) As a hypothetical example that could then explain your 5/4 kWh split

There are many potential reasons - but taking the timing from a competitors 8 hour off peak (but also 3 hour real peak) total tariff as an example.

Something like Octopus Cosy is a TOU tariff with 8 hours total off peak - but the overnight would be only 4-7am - so again lets guess EDF did something similar to your secondary tariff timings - but had set the ALCS to E7 (01:45 to 08:45) - so set 5-8 am DST - 5:15 to 8:15 with the 15m offset - for your secondary off peak night slot.

You would be logging 

0145 (ALCS start) to 0515 (Secondary low rate start) in Secondary TOU 1 - 3.5 hours

0515 to 0815 (secondary low rate end) - 3 hours in secondary TOU 2 

and 08:15 to 08:45 (ALCS end) back in secondary TOU 1.  

4 hours - wrongly - and 3 hours correctly - if my presumption that TOU1 is peak and TOU2 is off-peak is correct (or vice versa if I'm wrong on order.)

Remeber this is just a hypothetical example to show how the two could be out of sync. Im in no way asking you to check the meters at any of those times.

You said the heaters was on for 5 hours total - for the 9kWh - approx times ?

debitcardmayhem

AFAIK Bright is Bst/GMT @PZ19 if you look at bright 30 min view it may help 

PZ19

Scot_39 said:

Can a Bright user confirm if they time shift for GMT / DST by default or not.

[I can only guess the Bright 00:30 to 07:30 is the nominal - assuming no 15m preset - in GMT time - not current DST.]

And that PZ19 is seeing that physically right now as 01:45 to 08:45 ALCS switching / tariff swtiching on any external clocks.

I thought you said the other morning in c820am - post - that it was the secondary tou rate 2 that incremented with you hot water on for 1/2 hour.

So that suggests the timing at that point was correct - if in fact tou2 is off peak.

I suspect it is more likely they have done something like programmed a timing table for the 8 hours or 10 hours - say 3-5 hours off peak overnight - when your HW / heating devices would be active on E7 ALCS calendar (the 0145 to 0845) - so catching some of the use in secondary TOU1 and secondary TOU2.

Can you remember what times EDF told you your 8 hours off peak heating might be / would be ?

The reason I ask is to try and get to bottom of the 5/4 kWh TOU register split for your heater on for 5 hours (9kWh /5 hrs = nominal if constant 1.8kWh - being a small-medium sized NSH similar to my 2 hall heaters - about half the power of my one living room heater (3.5-3.6 kW input)) As a hypothetical example that could then explain your 5/4 kWh split

There are many potential reasons - but taking the timing from a competitors 8 hour off peak (but also 3 hour real peak) total tariff as an example.

Something like Octopus Cosy is a TOU tariff with 8 hours total off peak - but the overnight would be only 4-7am - so again lets guess EDF did something similar to your secondary tariff timings - but had set the ALCS to E7 (01:45 to 08:45) - so set 5-8 am DST - 5:15 to 8:15 with the 15m offset - for your secondary off peak night slot.

You would be logging 

0145 (ALCS start) to 0515 (Secondary low rate start) in Secondary TOU 1 - 3.5 hours

0515 to 0815 (secondary low rate end) - 3 hours in secondary TOU 2 

and 08:15 to 08:45 (ALCS end) back in secondary TOU 1.  

4 hours - wrongly - and 3 hours correctly - if my presumption that TOU1 is peak and TOU2 is off-peak is correct (or vice versa if I'm wrong on order.)

Remeber this is just a hypothetical example to show how the two could be out of sync. Im in no way asking you to check the meters at any of those times.

You said the heaters was on for 5 hours total - for the 9kWh - approx times ?

I will wait till EDF get back to me on the timings. Definitely been on 0145 to 0845.  I understand your theory though. Hopefully Monday I will find out.

EdF complaints manager I’m dealing with said to me 0000-0200 (water has definitely not been on at 0000 or 0100 when I checked this week) 0700-1000 ( definitely goes off 0845) 1600-1700 and 2100-2300

those times are definitely NOT what is happening now, as I have checked the water.

as for Bright, it is only showing me daily usage at the moment.