Economy 10 & Smart Meters

PZ19

Scot_39 said:

@PZ19, Just a quick check.

RE - Your reference to a light on the water heater.

It twigged last night about an error made in another thread.

I went through a couple of posts in another thread assuming the reference to a red led light on the off peak timer and peak boost switch meant the off peak supply was active.  (Maybe another reason ivd got a bit of a block about asking about LEDs)

Turned out it was only connected to the live feed - and that off peak led on the unit was just an indication of programmed times.

The OP property had a Horstman water timer

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6613730/economy-7-and-energy-usage-concerns-in-new-flat

So to clarify when @Phones4Chris was talking about an led on a switch - that was to get a true indication of off peak supply live. 

Which can be the case for wall switches with a neon indicator built in e.g. so think more like

https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-13a-switched-fused-spur-with-neon-white/79474

But that only 13A  - that site has a few 13A examples,  not sure if othees have similar for the higher rated 16A Id expect for an immersion heater switch or a nsh (my largest nsh pulls c3.6kWh - 15A at 240V -its fuse box breaker 20A)

There is a wall mounted switch inside the cupboard where the hot water tank is kept.  If I want the water heated on off peak rates I switch it on, and if I don’t I switch it off.  The light on it only comes on when electricity is being supplied to heat the water. Ie only comes on at off peak times, whatever they may be.  

in addition on the outside of the wall of cupboard where water tank is a separate switch which provides a Boost if I want water heated at any time of the day, and gets charged at standard peak rates.

PZ19

Still waiting EDF to respond about the timings I may ring them this morning and see if I can get hold of the complaints handler.  So below are the readings at 0745 this morning

TOU Rate 1 (24/7 Peak) 255
TOU Rate 2 (24/7 Off Peak) 32
2nd TOU Rate 1 (water/heat Peak) 38  which we know should be zero
2nd TOU Rate 2 (water/heat Off Peak) 133

I then switched on the water tank circuit on the off peak rates.  This turned off again at 0838.  And the 2nd TOU Rate 2 increased by 2 kWh.  The 2nd TOU Rate 1 didn’t move.. so that was expected behaviour, even if the timings are bizarre.

I also put a load of washing in at the same time and the ToU Rate 1 readings both increased by 1 kWh.  Which again is possible as I read the meter 10 mins after the water had gone off and the meter had switched to the peak price.

i think once EdF sort the timings out I should be fine.. they can sort their billing out whenever after that.

also interestingly when I got up to take the readings before switching the water on, the display on the actual meter had no readings and various different screens that I had never seen before, one of which had the standing charge on and another the meter serial number.  I went in to get my phone to take pics to show the forum and in the seconds it took to return the screens had returned to normal!  Bizarre..

Phones4Chris

PZ19 said:

also interestingly when I got up to take the readings before switching the water on, the display on the actual meter had no readings and various different screens that I had never seen before, one of which had the standing charge on and another the meter serial number.  I went in to get my phone to take pics to show the forum and in the seconds it took to return the screens had returned to normal!  Bizarre..

Maybe EDF had been doing (or trying to do!) some updates! The meter will cycle through the screens by itself but these are the Button A screens normally (and they aren't illuminated until you press the button) so when you press A it could be any of those screens that appear first.

Phones4Chris

Ildhund said:

Phones4Chris said:
The data you've got is interesting, what I can't be certain of, is which "registers" Bright get the tariff data from. 

It is really frustrating not being able to see all the settings the supplier may have applied to our meters. It would make in-home troubleshooting so much simpler in many cases.

There is at least one source available to the determined sleuth: n3rgy's adapter gives access not only to half-hourly usage data, but also to the tariff switching table. I say 'determined', because there are a few hoops to jump through to get there:

• Sign up for a 'consumer' account at n3rgy - Unified access to smart energy data;
• Sign up with one of n3rgy's business customers, who will see to authorization for n3rgy to retrieve data from your meter (I signed up with Equiwatt - it's free, but they do expect some participation in their DFS events);
• Sign in to n3rgy as a consumer;
• Follow the prompts to access and download your tariff data.

This should result in a text file containing the meter's tariff switching table in JSON format. I can't imagine what this looks like for a twin-element meter; it's complicated enough for my own simple arrangement (ordinary 5-port SMETS2 Aclara configured for E7 with both tiers set to the same single rate). I don't know if @PZ19 is at all interested in looking into this, but it might be fascinating for some of us.

One really important set of information the customer seems absolutely barred from accessing is the ALCS calendar. It's only a subset of suppliers' staff who have the elevated permissions needed to amend this calendar, that controls when the restricted feed is switched on and off. This is why it's a real problem for those in a no- (or poor-) WAN situation whose ALCS needs attention, because it can't be changed locally. 

We'd perhaps have to ask Bright to find out how they cope with twin-element metering systems.

On an initial glance at that 1st n3rgy link, one might have thought they'd sorted the licencing so consumers could register directly, but no, same as recently, boring!
That JSON format for the Tariff is a pain to get displayed in a more readable manner, BUT it does now contain a lot more information which could be a touch more than fascinating if one can get things working with a dual element meter. (I signed up with Equiwatt to get access but I don't participate in their DFS stuff, I just open the App from time to time). I think this might be a good subject for it's own thread at some future date (when time allows to investigate more!).
Yes it's a pain not being able to access the ALCS calendar - I don't suppose anyone has a hack! I'm not sure if it Could be changed locally in Engineering mode on these Aclara.
I might email Jane at Bright to see if she can advise, she's been pretty good with me and tech info in the past.
Anyway, this is all going a bit off-topic.

Phones4Chris

Scot_39 said:

So to clarify when @Phones4Chris was talking about an led on a switch - that was to get a true indication of off peak supply live. 

Which can be the case for wall switches with a neon indicator built in e.g. so think more like

https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-13a-switched-fused-spur-with-neon-white/79474

But that only 13A  - that site has a few 13A examples,  not sure if othees have similar for the higher rated 16A Id expect for an immersion heater switch or a nsh (my largest nsh pulls c3.6kWh - 15A at 240V -its fuse box breaker 20A)

Slightly off-topic, one would not Normally have a "Fused" spur outlet on a circuit that supplies an individual storage/water heater. It would be more likely a 20A switch such as -
https://www.toolstation.com/click-mode-20a-dp-switch/p50655 or
https://www.toolstation.com/click-mode-20a-dp-switch/p18945
or similar. from other brands.

Phones4Chris

PZ19 said:

Still waiting EDF to respond about the timings I may ring them this morning and see if I can get hold of the complaints handler.  So below are the readings at 0745 this morning

TOU Rate 1 (24/7 Peak) 255
TOU Rate 2 (24/7 Off Peak) 32
2nd TOU Rate 1 (water/heat Peak) 38  which we know should be zero
2nd TOU Rate 2 (water/heat Off Peak) 133

I then switched on the water tank circuit on the off peak rates.  This turned off again at 0838.  And the 2nd TOU Rate 2 increased by 2 kWh.  The 2nd TOU Rate 1 didn’t move.. so that was expected behaviour, even if the timings are bizarre.

@PZ19 A few things of interest.
Note that the 2nd TOU Rate 1 has gone up by 8kWh since your previous post of the readings 4 days ago, whereas the 2nd TOU Rate 2 has gone up by 11kWh -
Total Act Imp kWh (1 + 2) Reading 424
Total Act Exp kWh (1 + 2) Reading 0
TOU Rate 1 Reading 241
TOU Rate 2 Reading 30
Second TOU Rate 1 Reading 29
Second TOU Rate 2 Reading 122 

Who knows what the Tariff programming for the 2nd element is atm !!! But that will no doubt change.
BUT in view of my previous comment, I note you said "This turned off again at 0838". Can we just clarify, that was the meter switching off the off-peak, not you turning off the water?
If it was the meter, and IF EDF have been reprogramming (as suggested as a possibility in my previous post) then I wonder if the "offset" timing might also change to a new random amount when such reprogramming occurs (@Ildhund - any thoughts, it was 0845 previously?)

It might be helpful to post the 4 TOU register readings for each day and saying what off-peak is switched on and when, to give us a "better (maybe)" idea of what the meter is doing, which of course may change!.
Also are you able to clarify what you are seeing in the Bright App and how the Energy usage in kWh compared to the TOU registers?

Also in view of your comment about the screens, does the Button A presses now give any different cycle of screens from what you posted before?

PZ19

Off peak went off at 0837 exactly this morning, I watched it.  Radio silence from EDF this week.  It clearly is the timing on the meter that is the issue with the readings. Water was on all night so should be at off peak rates.  At 11pm last night the 2nd TOU Rates were 1 (Peak rates) 38 and 2 (Off peak) 133.  After the switch at 0837 those readings were 41 and 137 respectively.  The total of 7kwh used is what I expect but as we all now know they should be all off peak. The fact that it was split almost evenly between the 2 rates says to me the timing periods in the meter are off by quite some distance.  I’m not going to be paying them for peak rates on that meter when it’s all finally sorted out sometime in 2026!  As a numbers geek I know exactly what my bill should be.  Almost 3 months now since they switched the meter.  All very impressive!!

button A shows the same screens as it always does, just for that fleeting moment yesterday morning did they display a whole,host of new things.

Scot_39

Does anyone know if other suppliers are fitting twin element meters ?

And if so - how well they are managing to configure the meters and bill their customers ?

Ildhund

Phones4Chris said:
I wonder if the "offset" timing might also change to a new random amount when such reprogramming occurs (@Ildhund - any thoughts, it was 0845 previously?)

The randomized offset is immutable, as far as I know. The two elements that make it up are:

• a random number between 0 and 1 baked into the meter in the factory;
• a number between 0 and 1800 entered by the installing engineer. 

I have my suspicion that some (many?) engineers only enter three digits, which would explain why most offsets end up lower than 15 minutes (999 seconds is ~16 minutes).

It's possible that 08:45 was an approximation arising from a glance at the kitchen clock after poking around in the meter cabinet or the airing cupboard. The meter's in-built clock shouldn't have been able to drift far from its initial setting on installation - less than a second, I'd say. It can be read somewhere on the Button 'B' menu, I think (and within a minute on the IHD, of course).

PZ19

A response to my email about the timings…

We are working on an enduring solution to update these Twin Elements correctly.We will find that, despite the meter showing three registers, two of these will be totalised to provide the Off peak usage

i dont believe they know what they are doing.  And I am not paying them for any peak usage of water or heat.  It was a simple question I asked, what times are set in the meter to be off peak, and that’s their answer.

jokers.