Economy 10 & Smart Meters

PZ19

QrizB said:

PZ19 said:

Morning all, so major issue.  Had one storage heater on all night as a test.  Just been to check it and it’s cold.  ...  It was my understanding that the water and heat are on the same circuit but appears  not to be the case.

Can you share a photo (or several photos, if necessary) that shows how the tails from your meter connect to your consumer unit(s), and also photo(s) showing the circuits that each consumer unit feeds?

There’s a picture on page 4 of this thread of the meter once installed.  Is that what you are after?

QrizB

PZ19 said:

QrizB said:

PZ19 said:

Morning all, so major issue.  Had one storage heater on all night as a test.  Just been to check it and it’s cold.  ...  It was my understanding that the water and heat are on the same circuit but appears  not to be the case.

Can you share a photo (or several photos, if necessary) that shows how the tails from your meter connect to your consumer unit(s), and also photo(s) showing the circuits that each consumer unit feeds?

There’s a picture on page 4 of this thread of the meter once installed.  Is that what you are after?

The photo on page 4 shows the meter, but it doesn't show where the meter tails (grey wires) go after they leave the metal box the meter is in.

They will connect to your consumer units (fuse boxes), from where the electricity is distributed to your storage heaters, water tank and everything else.

Seeing how everything connects together might help us work out why your storage heater remained cold last night, and whether it really is on the same supply as your water heater.

PZ19

QrizB said:

PZ19 said:

QrizB said:

PZ19 said:

Morning all, so major issue.  Had one storage heater on all night as a test.  Just been to check it and it’s cold.  ...  It was my understanding that the water and heat are on the same circuit but appears  not to be the case.

Can you share a photo (or several photos, if necessary) that shows how the tails from your meter connect to your consumer unit(s), and also photo(s) showing the circuits that each consumer unit feeds?

There’s a picture on page 4 of this thread of the meter once installed.  Is that what you are after?

The photo on page 4 shows the meter, but it doesn't show where the meter tails (grey wires) go after they leave the metal box the meter is in.

They will connect to your consumer units (fuse boxes), from where the electricity is distributed to your storage heaters, water tank and everything else.

Seeing how everything connects together might help us work out why your storage heater remained cold last night, and whether it really is on the same supply as your water heater.

Fuse boxes..I assume that’s what you after?

QrizB

That's it, thank you.

It looks like a fairly standard setup, and I don't quite understand why you weren't given a standard single-element smart meter rather than the dual-element one.

Youve got two water heater feeds, one from each CU (fuse box). I'm guessing you've got a conventional E7-type hot water tank with two immersion heaters, one fed from the off-peak CU and one from the std rate one (the latter usually intended for top-up heating). Which one did you switch on for your test?

PZ19

QrizB said:

That's it, thank you.

It looks like a fairly standard setup, and I don't quite understand why you weren't given a standard single-element smart meter rather than the dual-element one.

Youve got two water heater feeds, one from each CU (fuse box). I'm guessing you've got a conventional E7-type hot water tank with two immersion heaters, one fed from the off-peak CU and one from the std rate one (the latter usually intended for top-up heating). Which one did you switch on for your test?

Correct on the water..I used the off peak only switch for water and that works fine. Used 3 kWh in the hour I had it on this morning.  On the storage heater, it may be an actual issue with the heater.  I have 2 in the lounge so I switched the other one on for 55 mins this morning when I realised the other one I had on all night hadn’t heated up (off peak 0750-0845) and it had warmth to it.  Not sure why the other one wouldn’t heat over night, I only used that one over last winter and was fine last time I switched it off in the spring..

as for the meter, following advice on here (and using my own common sense) I did ask that they provide one that allows the time to be switched to ensure I got water and heat off peak.  Clearly that is the extent of my knowledge of meters though!  Why they provided that particular model, who knows

Phones4Chris

@PZ19 Thanks for the Button A detail etc. @QrizB has beaten me to what was going to be my next query in view of the current answers.

QrizB

PZ19 said:

QrizB said:

That's it, thank you.

It looks like a fairly standard setup, and I don't quite understand why you weren't given a standard single-element smart meter rather than the dual-element one.

Youve got two water heater feeds, one from each CU (fuse box). I'm guessing you've got a conventional E7-type hot water tank with two immersion heaters, one fed from the off-peak CU and one from the std rate one (the latter usually intended for top-up heating). Which one did you switch on for your test?

Correct on the water..I used the off peak only switch for water and that works fine. Used 3 kWh in the hour I had it on this morning.  On the storage heater, it may be an actual issue with the heater.  I have 2 in the lounge so I switched the other one on for 55 mins this morning when I realised the other one I had on all night hadn’t heated up (off peak 0750-0845) and it had warmth to it.  Not sure why the other one wouldn’t heat over night, I only used that one over last winter and was fine last time I switched it off in the spring..

If the off-peak water heater is working, then you've got power to the off-peak CU and from there to your storage heaters. It seems the meter installation is OK, you just need to work out the timings and make sure the billing matches (not like Rosie where the ALCS timings didn't match the rate change times).

I'm glad that the other heater got warm! For the one that didn't, double check the switches and fuses and then try again tonight/tomorrow?

Phones4Chris

QrizB said:

That's it, thank you.

It looks like a fairly standard setup, and I don't quite understand why you weren't given a standard single-element smart meter rather than the dual-element one.

Youve got two water heater feeds, one from each CU (fuse box). I'm guessing you've got a conventional E7-type hot water tank with two immersion heaters, one fed from the off-peak CU and one from the std rate one (the latter usually intended for top-up heating). Which one did you switch on for your test?

I suspect there's two possibilities here. 1) because of the previous complex meter set-up with a "Heat" Meter which obviously did the Off-peak Heating & Water and a 2nd E7 meter on the standard 24/7 Domestic side.
OR 2) The big demand for meters with the RTS switch-offs means there is a shortage of 1416-B models.
No real problem as either can do the job needed - just supplier interfacing currently an issue (at present) and customer understanding as it's more complex.
Even though the pictures don't show the meter tails in full. it's such a tidy installation, it's obvious what is what.

@PZ19 Does the Supplier message screen not say "Welcome to EDF" ? Whatever, could you post a picture of that screen when the off-peak is NOT active?
It'll be interesting to see the whole screen display in that situation. The thing I've noted is that even though it's a 2025 made meter (code on RHS) the firmware is obviously at a different standard from my 2021 1416-B as yours shows LC2 when the off-peak is active, more in line with the out-of-date 2019 manual !!! 

Also, you said when you flicked the water on at 0245, the light came on, just to be clear, is this a light on the switch itself and so remains lit if the switch is on and the meter has switched to off-peak?

I'll try and explain these "two" readings again. Because this model of meter is a "twin" element, is has two separate electronics inside for the port 4 (24/7) and port 5 (off-peak heating) circuits. Hence each one needs a Peak and Off-peak - ie. TOU Rate 1 and TOU Rate 2 register, unlike the 1416-B where it's a single element, all on the same electronic control.
The most likely situation from the readings you've given is as follows -
TOU Rate 1 is your 24/7 circuits Peak Time usage, TOU Rate 2 is your 24/7 circuits off-peak usage. (Every thing switches to off-peak during the off-peak times).
Second TOU Rate 1 if the Peak time usage and Second TOU Rate 2 is the off-peak usage of the Storage Heating/Water heating circuits.
Now, it IS possible for the ALCS to be programmed at different times from the Tariff Rate changes - unusual but can happen when the supplier doesn't get the programming right - my concern here is that has happened at some point as you have a Second TOU Rate 1 usage. Hopefully that will NOT go up in the future.

Also, At a guess, from the times you said you've seen the tariff rate change, your meter has a 15 minute auto-built in delay from the "standard" times. This isn't normally an issue, it's so that everyone's meters don't switch at the same time causing a big surge at the sub-station. You just need to note when your own off-peak times are.

Phones4Chris

@PZ19 A couple more things I meant to include in that last post.
If you add up all the TOU Rate readings, they come to the Total Act Imp kWh (1 + 2) Reading - except it can be a unit or two more, if any of the individual registers are about to increment to the next whole kWh. I see that on my meter from time to time, it's not a fault or issue.
The "Meter Balance" is what the meter reckons your bill is for the current billing period, based on the tariff data it's been loaded with. (IIRC billing periods are normally a month from whatever date your supplier has set).
EDIT: And one more (ha), what are the power ratings of the storage heater(s), the one you switched on that didn't appear to go, and the other one you might try. From cold they may well take in charge for the whole initial off-peak duration. It'll give us an idea about how much the meter might or did increment.
As for the one that didn't work, as suggested check switches, fuses, connections & etc.

PZ19

Thanks to both of you for helping me to understand what is going on.

I am putting the storage heater that didn’t work on a higher setting tonight and see what happens in the morning. Fuses look fine, and was fine last time I used it, back in probably April time, so we will see what happens over weekend.

I have never seen any message on the supplier info screen.  Attached is what it currently looks like.

With regards to the water, I can flick a switch that heats the immersion only at off peak times, that’s what I flicked On at 2.45am this morning, and it lit up, hence I know then it’s off peak.  It will not work at any other peak time, as it’s on that separate circuit. 

Not sure what you mean by tails of the meter but hopefully this helps