Notice for intended prosecution for "speeding" at 29mph

kinger101

Nijinsky said:

Unfortunately, I live in Wales and have recently fallen victim to the ridiculous 20mph speed limit change. I drove down a road which has always been 30mph, but I received a notice for intended prosecution by the South Wales Police as this is now apparently a 20mph road.

There is no 20mph speed limit sign on this road, so I appealed and posted a link to the speedcamerasuk.com site, showing this road is still listed as 30mph. The police replied saying "there is no requirements for there to be signs on 20mph road as any road with continuous streetlights should be considered a 20mph road".

In Wales, there are still 30mph roads with continuous streetlights and I believe the speed limit must be clearly displayed on every road, so I strongly disagree with their statement. Also, in accordance with section 85(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, speed limit signs must be present and erected and maintained by the national authority, so that a driver can observe the appropriate speed limit for that particular road.

The police are asking me to fill in a form giving my details and return it to them, under Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, otherwise I may get 6 points and a fine. Their response to my appeal states I can add a covering letter to the returned form to continue my appeal.

I find the wording from the South Wales Police interesting, as it's a notice of intended prosecution and they are intending on taking proceedings for my alleged offence. There is no information on what the charge is, whether it's for a fine, points or something else.

My appeal and the Police's response are below. Currently, I'm thinking I will fill in the form to send off with an attached covering letter to continue my appeal, but any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading and thanks in advance to any replies to help me.


My appeal:

I received your notice of intended prosecution for going 29mph on Cardiff Road, Hawthorn. I'm not disputing my speed - I was driving 29mph because this road has always been a 30mph speed limit.

I had no knowledge Cardiff Road, Hawthorn has been changed from a 30mph speed limit to a 20mph speed limit and I didn't see any signage confirming the speed limit change.

I have since driven down Cardiff Road, Hawthorn again. There is an average speed check sign entering Hawthorn from the Upper Boat roundabout direction, but there is no sign stating what the average speed check limit is. There are no 20mph signs visible. In fact, there are no speed limit signs on this road at all. Speed limit signs must be clearly visible and I didn't see one speed limit sign when driving down Cardiff Road, Hawthorn.

Also, the speedcamerasuk.com database states Cardiff Road is a 30mph speed limit. The description of where the speed camera on Cardiff Road is positioned - "heading to upper boat from Treforest on the main road right by the ambulance station from upper boat way 'Hawthorn Inn' (public house) on left", is the exact area I was recorded doing 29mph. See link: Rhydyfeln A4054 - Cardiff Road 30mph Gatso speed camera in Rhondda Cynon Taff (speedcamerasuk.com)

There is no clear, visible signage showing Cardiff Road, Hawthorn is now a 20mph speed limit and the speedcamerasuk.com database states Cardiff Road is still a 30mph speed limit. Therefore, I'm appealing to request for this notice to be cancelled.

Regards,

Ross


South Wales Police's response:

Good morning,

After new legislation from the Welsh Government came into place on September 17th, 2023, all restricted roads in Wales are to be considered 20mph roads unless it is stated otherwise by signage, not 30mph.
Therefore, there is no requirements for there to be signs on 20mph road as any road with continuous streetlights should be considered a 20mph road. This new legislation has been in place since September last year and news of the new rules has been spread extensively prior to and following the start of legislation.

Instead, you should look for speed limit signs, road markings, and streetlights as an indicator of the speed limit.

I now advise completing and returning the Notice of Intended prosecution you have received to us at the earliest convenience. If you still wish to appeal this offence you can do so by writing a covering letter and attaching, it with the form mentioned above.

You weren't "speeding". You were speeding.  Not saying I think uniform 20 mph is correct and I think there could have been a grace period with more leniency but the change to 20 mph was well publicised.

 

MX5huggy

Nijinsky said:

I've just travelled down that road and there are several 30 signs until reaching that 20 sign, but then there is also a 30 sign painted on the road.

Surely, the 20 sign is just to warn motorists to slow down to the roundabout, similar to a 20 sign being placed outside a school on a 30mph road?

The 30 sign painted on the road suggests to me the road continues at 30mph after the brief 20mph section for the roundabout?

It's totally confusing and the lack of clarity needs to be addressed for all of us.

I checked again last night although I didn’t make my daughter take another photo. There is a 20 painted on the road in the direction of travel. Theres 30 painted on the other 2 lanes for traffic traveling in the other direction but these are upside down if travelling into the 20. 

I’m really concerned you think 20’s outside schools are somehow not the speed limit but to advise you to slow down, and that you’re reading 8ft high 20 numbers painted  on the road as 30. Time for an eye test me thinks. 

Nijinsky

Mildly_Miffed said:

Nijinsky said:

I've just travelled down that road and there are several 30 signs until reaching that 20 sign, but then there is also a 30 sign painted on the road.

Surely, the 20 sign is just to warn motorists to slow down to the roundabout, similar to a 20 sign being placed outside a school on a 30mph road?

The 30 sign painted on the road suggests to me the road continues at 30mph after the brief 20mph section for the roundabout?

It's totally confusing and the lack of clarity needs to be addressed for all of us.

This really is starting to sound as if you're trying to make some kind of political point out of this, rather than genuinely trying to understand if and how you might have misinterpreted perfectly clear signage...

Nijinsky said:

Unfortunately, I live in Wales and have recently fallen victim to the ridiculous 20mph speed limit change.

The situation is simple.

Take the course or fixed penalty, or go to court.
If you want to try to make a political stand, then court is the place to do it.
You won't win, and it will cost you a lot more, but you might get a headline out of it, but probably only on page 2 of the local paper if it's a quiet week.

...or stand for the Senedd.
https://senedd.wales/work-opportunities/becoming-a-member-of-the-senedd/

...or move to the other side of the border.

Seems like you work for the council yourself with that rather triggered response. Most people have been helpful and I really appreciate those who have helped, but you have been no help whatsoever with your rambling post.

I'm totally bemused why you think I'm making some sort of political point. I think everyone in Wales is disgruntled with the 20mph change. I haven't missed perfectly clear signage as there is no speed limit signage on that road. The 20mph signs just before the roundabout must have only been put up the past week or two, probably because I've correctly pointed out to the police there were no 20mph signs visible. Those 20mph signs definitely weren't there until very recently and when I pointed this out to a police officer I know, he was surprised.

If you really want me to make a political point with this, I will say Drakeford has imposed this because it doesn't affect him as he doesn't drive himself. Drakeford wants to stop us driving altogether to carry out the WEF agendas and to help his paedophile son not look so suspicious when slowly curb crawling the school streets.

I have booked the speed awareness course because it's my cheapest available option. The system is so corrupt so it's pointless challenging, especially now those new 20 signs have been put up. Like I said, we need to be more careful than ever. I bet the vast majority attending speed awareness courses aren't there because they've intentionally broken the speed limit, but because they've been caught out by insufficient signage, deliberately deceiving us to take as much money as they can from us ordinary people.

Nijinsky

MX5huggy said:

Nijinsky said:

I've just travelled down that road and there are several 30 signs until reaching that 20 sign, but then there is also a 30 sign painted on the road.

Surely, the 20 sign is just to warn motorists to slow down to the roundabout, similar to a 20 sign being placed outside a school on a 30mph road?

The 30 sign painted on the road suggests to me the road continues at 30mph after the brief 20mph section for the roundabout?

It's totally confusing and the lack of clarity needs to be addressed for all of us.

I checked again last night although I didn’t make my daughter take another photo. There is a 20 painted on the road in the direction of travel. Theres 30 painted on the other 2 lanes for traffic traveling in the other direction but these are upside down if travelling into the 20. 

I’m really concerned you think 20’s outside schools are somehow not the speed limit but to advise you to slow down, and that you’re reading 8ft high 20 numbers painted  on the road as 30. Time for an eye test me thinks. 

Thanks for telling me I require an eye test, despite confirming exactly what I said with the 30 sign painted on the road... 

northwalesd

Nijinsky said:

I think everyone in Wales is disgruntled with the 20mph change.

Please don't speak for everyone. I live in Wales and I'm not disgruntled by the 20 limit one bit. Speeders on the other hand... (and yes I've been one myself, learnt my lesson.)

TooManyPoints

The 20mph signs just before the roundabout must have only been put up the past week or two, probably because I've correctly pointed out to the police there were no 20mph signs visible. Those 20mph signs definitely weren't there until very recently and when I pointed this out to a police officer I know, he was surprised.

If you believe that why, for your own satisfaction, do you not check with the local authority to find out when they were installed?

If you find out quickly enough and you are correct, you can simply fail to participate in the course you have booked, wait until you are prosecuted and defend the matter in court. The remedy to counter the system that you believe is corrupt is available to you. The thing you should bear in mind is that it is also available to everybody else. The 20mph scheme in Wales has been in force for more than a year and I suspect that if the signage, on what looks like a fairly busy road, was deficient as you believe, somebody would have discovered that by now and taken the option that is available to you.  

Money_Grabber13579

Nijinsky said:

MX5huggy said:

Nijinsky said:

I've just travelled down that road and there are several 30 signs until reaching that 20 sign, but then there is also a 30 sign painted on the road.

Surely, the 20 sign is just to warn motorists to slow down to the roundabout, similar to a 20 sign being placed outside a school on a 30mph road?

The 30 sign painted on the road suggests to me the road continues at 30mph after the brief 20mph section for the roundabout?

It's totally confusing and the lack of clarity needs to be addressed for all of us.

I checked again last night although I didn’t make my daughter take another photo. There is a 20 painted on the road in the direction of travel. Theres 30 painted on the other 2 lanes for traffic traveling in the other direction but these are upside down if travelling into the 20. 

I’m really concerned you think 20’s outside schools are somehow not the speed limit but to advise you to slow down, and that you’re reading 8ft high 20 numbers painted  on the road as 30. Time for an eye test me thinks. 

Thanks for telling me I require an eye test, despite confirming exactly what I said with the 30 sign painted on the road... 

But they haven’t confirmed what you’ve just said? You said there is a 30 sign painted on the road (implying this was in the direction you were travelling). They said there is a 20 sign painted on the road, but there is a 30 sign painted on the road in the opposite direction (i.e. coming out of the 20 and into the 30).

Car_54

TooManyPoints said:

The 20mph signs just before the roundabout must have only been put up the past week or two, probably because I've correctly pointed out to the police there were no 20mph signs visible. Those 20mph signs definitely weren't there until very recently and when I pointed this out to a police officer I know, he was surprised.

If you believe that why, for your own satisfaction, do you not check with the local authority to find out when they were installed?

If you find out quickly enough and you are correct, you can simply fail to participate in the course you have booked, wait until you are prosecuted and defend the matter in court. The remedy to counter the system that you believe is corrupt is available to you. The thing you should bear in mind is that it is also available to everybody else. The 20mph scheme in Wales has been in force for more than a year and I suspect that if the signage, on what looks like a fairly busy road, was deficient as you believe, somebody would have discovered that by now and taken the option that is available to you.  

But if he has booked the course he has also paid, and I don't believe he'll get a refund.

So if he goes to court, and is found not guilty, he'll still be c.£100 down. If guilty, he'll be c.£1,000 down plus 3 points. 

Time to cut his losses.

Baldytyke88

I have just received a NIP for traveling at 26mph in a 20mph zone. I will fill in the form and pay whatever penalty.

I don't think it's a good road to have a 20mph zone, very few people crossing the roads, no houses facing the road and no schools etc.

I may look into that at a later date, but I cannot see anything changing.

What speed limits do other countries have, 25mph, 25kmph etc?

I would say 25mph would be a better limit, unless near a school.

Mildly_Miffed

Baldytyke88 said:

I have just received a NIP for traveling at 26mph in a 20mph zone. I will fill in the form and pay whatever penalty.

I don't think it's a good road to have a 20mph zone, very few people crossing the roads, no houses facing the road and no schools etc.

I may look into that at a later date, but I cannot see anything changing.

What speed limits do other countries have, 25mph, 25kmph etc?

I would say 25mph would be a better limit, unless near a school.

30kph (18mph) or 50kph (30mph), usually. Don't think I've ever seen a 40kph limit across the rest of Europe.

EVERY SINGLE legally enforceable UK speed limit is a multiple of 10mph, so an x5mph would be a real exception.

if that bit of road doesn't need a 20, then 30 is within the council's power - but they've decided not to.