Notice for intended prosecution for "speeding" at 29mph

Nijinsky

Thanks for the latest replies.

I don't wish to waste anyone's time. As everyone has told me to suck it up and accept the charge,  I've referred myself to a speed awareness course, but I haven't booked it yet. I'm assuming because I've referred myself to the course though, I have already made my decision so I can't contest this any further?

I have looked up the route I took and technically, it is a different road before I enter the roundabout, which is a 30mph limit. When I cross the roundabout onto what is technically a different road, there is an average speed check sign, but no 20mph sign.

The police's response to my letter says "once you have passed a 20mph speed limit sign, all roads thereafter are subject to the same restriction, unless you see a sign stating otherwise."

Unfortunately, there are no recent Google maps images, but I approached the roundabout on this road, which now currently has 30mph signs displayed: A473 - Google Maps

The roundabout is here: Gwaelod-Y-Garth Rd - Google Maps

I took the first exit onto the A4054, which goes into Cardiff Road. Here is the average speed check sign when entering Cardiff Road: 3 Cardiff Rd - Google Maps

As you can see, there is no speed limit listed on this average speed check sign, so going back to the police's statement of  "once you have passed a 20mph speed limit sign, all roads thereafter are subject to the same restriction, unless you see a sign stating otherwise", I think it's fair to argue the last speed limit sign I saw was 30mph.

So I have passed a 30mph speed limit sign before the roundabout and taking the police's statement "all roads thereafter are subject to the same restriction, unless I see a sign stating otherwise", the only sign I have seen is the average speed check sign. I have seen no speed limit sign stating otherwise, so I had every reason to believe the road was still 30mph.

I'm happy to contiue contesting this if you feel I have a case, but like I said, I've already referred myself to a speed awareness course now. If there is nothing I can do as I've committed myself to paying for the speed awareness course, I will stop wasting everyones time, suck it up and thank you all for your time and advice.

Nijinsky

I guess from the lack of replies to my last message, I need to suck it up and press ahead booking a speed awareness course?

LightFlare

You will need to provide pictures/video that aren’t more than a year old to get any definitive advice.
Based on the old ones,it appears you may have a case, however new signs etc may have appeared in the interim.
Try retracing the route as a passenger and see if there are any visible (stick to 20 though)

TooManyPoints

“If there is nothing I can do as I've committed myself to paying for the speed awareness course, I will stop wasting everyones time, suck it up and thank you all for your time and advice.”

If you do not pay for and complete the course by around five months from the offence date,  the offer will be withdrawn and you will be prosecuted.

I think it's fair to argue the last speed limit sign I saw was 30mph.

The question you need to ask yourself and answer is quite straightforward: “is there a “20” sign on the route you took between the 30mph stretch and the place the police allege the limit is 20mph?” Note the question is “is there a sign?” not “did you see one?” So I recommend you go back and check (preferably with dashcam footage to support your case if you do decide to defend it). 

Mildly_Miffed

LightFlare said:

You will need to provide pictures/video that aren’t more than a year old to get any definitive advice.
Based on the old ones,it appears you may have a case, however new signs etc may have appeared in the interim.
Try retracing the route as a passenger and see if there are any visible (stick to 20 though)

The default urban 20 was introduced in mid September 2023, so any streetview etc pics predating that will DEFINITELY not reflect the current situation.

As far as the course goes, you had two choices on the s172 request - the first communication - to identify the driver.
1. Yes, it was me.
2. No, it wasn't me, but I believe it to have been...
This is what you were clearly referring to in your original post.

If you took 1, you may then received an offer of a speed awareness course. If you accepted that, then you were accepting you did indeed commit the offence. Same for a fixed penalty.
If you were denying the offence, then you needed to refuse either or both of those, and go for court.

If you accepted either SAC or FPN, but failed to complete it, then you will still be heading to court. At that stage, "I didn't do it" will be viewed with extreme scepticism, since you already accepted you did.

But there's one thing I'd like to clarify, please.
You posted your original post on Tuesday 22nd October, saying you had had the initial s172, and had tried to argue it but been told just to reply properly.
Just before midnight on Wednesday 23rd October, you said you were going to reply.
On Fri 1st November, you said you'd "tried booking" an SAC.
Even if you posted that reply first class on the Thursday, that seems a VERY short window for them to receive and process the s172 response then send the SAC offer out...
On Sunday 3rd November, you said you'd "referred yourself" to an SAC. That's not how it works. You don't refer yourself. They offer it.

I suspect you need to look again at what you have (and haven't) actually received so far. I suspect you've returned the s172 and accepted you were driving, but haven't actually received anything else back yet.

Going back to your original post...
"There is no 20mph speed limit sign on this road, so I appealed and posted a link to the speedcamerasuk.com site, showing this road is still listed as 30mph. The police replied saying "there is no requirements for there to be signs on 20mph road as any road with continuous streetlights should be considered a 20mph road".
In Wales, there are still 30mph roads with continuous streetlights and I believe the speed limit must be clearly displayed on every road, so I strongly disagree with their statement."

Your "belief" is incorrect, and has been since at least the introduction of the default urban 30 in the 1930s. The default limit does not need to be signed, except at the point it starts.

In Wales, that means there is ONLY a requirement for initial 20mph limit signs at the start of that default urban limit, so long as the road is streetlit (as your pre-20 streetview shows it is).
For it to be a 30, there would HAVE to be reminders.
A third-party website is irrelevant and proof of nothing.
You are shooting your own defence in the foot with your statement there.

Okell

Mildly_Miffed said:

LightFlare said:

You will need to provide pictures/video that aren’t more than a year old to get any definitive advice.
Based on the old ones,it appears you may have a case, however new signs etc may have appeared in the interim.
Try retracing the route as a passenger and see if there are any visible (stick to 20 though)

...Your "belief" is incorrect, and has been since at least the introduction of the default urban 30 in the 1930s. The default limit does not need to be signed, except at the point it starts.

In Wales, that means there is ONLY a requirement for initial 20mph limit signs at the start of that default urban limit, so long as the road is streetlit (as your pre-20 streetview shows it is)...

Perhaps I'm being overly pedantic or perhaps I'm just confused, but is it strictly true that the default limit on a restricted road (20 in Wales and 30 elsewhere) only needs to be signed at the point where it starts?

As I say, perhaps I'm being overly pedantic but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the limit needs to be signed at every point where you can enter the restricted road?

If you have a restricted road that starts at point A and ends at point D, but you can also enter that road at points B and C, don't all four points need to be signed and not just A and D?  And isn't this the situation that @Nijinsky is suggesting has happened?  ie they entered a 20mph limit from a 30 limit without warning.

It seems to me to be less ambiguous to say that the limit needs to be signed at each point you enter it rather than just where it "starts".  But perhaps I'm overthinking it.

Mildly_Miffed said:

LightFlare said:

You will need to provide pictures/video that aren’t more than a year old to get any definitive advice.
Based on the old ones,it appears you may have a case, however new signs etc may have appeared in the interim.
Try retracing the route as a passenger and see if there are any visible (stick to 20 though)

... Just before midnight on Wednesday 23rd October, you said you were going to reply.
On Fri 1st November, you said you'd "tried booking" an SAC.
Even if you posted that reply first class on the Thursday, that seems a VERY short window for them to receive and process the s172 response then send the SAC offer out...
On Sunday 3rd November, you said you'd "referred yourself" to an SAC. That's not how it works. You don't refer yourself. They offer it...

I see what you mean about the short turnaround but it might be possible.  I did a course last year and got the offer within a couple of days of nominating myself.  Admittedly I was able to nominate myself online and didn't have to send anything by post, but even if the OP did reply by snailmail I think he could well have received a course offer in just a week

Mildly_Miffed

Okell said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

LightFlare said:

You will need to provide pictures/video that aren’t more than a year old to get any definitive advice.
Based on the old ones,it appears you may have a case, however new signs etc may have appeared in the interim.
Try retracing the route as a passenger and see if there are any visible (stick to 20 though)

...Your "belief" is incorrect, and has been since at least the introduction of the default urban 30 in the 1930s. The default limit does not need to be signed, except at the point it starts.

In Wales, that means there is ONLY a requirement for initial 20mph limit signs at the start of that default urban limit, so long as the road is streetlit (as your pre-20 streetview shows it is)...

Perhaps I'm being overly pedantic or perhaps I'm just confused, but is it strictly true that the default limit on a restricted road (20 in Wales and 30 elsewhere) only needs to be signed at the point where it starts?

As I say, perhaps I'm being overly pedantic but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the limit needs to be signed at every point where you can enter the restricted road?

If you have a restricted road that starts at point A and ends at point D, but you can also enter that road at points B and C, don't all four points need to be signed and not just A and D?  And isn't this the situation that @Nijinsky is suggesting has happened?  ie they entered a 20mph limit from a 30 limit without warning.

It seems to me to be less ambiguous to say that the limit needs to be signed at each point you enter it rather than just where it "starts".  But perhaps I'm overthinking it.

It starts for the joining traffic at that point. They get a change-of-limit sign.

As you say, traffic entering at B and C would get signage showing the new limit that applies to them. Traffic already on the A-D road would not see fresh signage, because their limit is not changing.

The OP is, AIUI, basing his assertion that "there wasn't a sign" on Streetview images that predate the inception of the default 20.

I turn into my lane (NSL default) from a 50 limit. There is an NSL sign at the junction, and 50 going the other way. Where the NSL lane meets a different NSL lane, there is no more NSL signage, because nobody is entering NSL, everybody is already in NSL.

Same in towns in England or Scotland or NI. If a 50 road is joined by a default 30, there is a 30 for people turning off the 50, and a 50 for those turning on. If a 30 joins another 30, there is no signage.
Same in Wales, but 20 instead of 30.

The OP's assertion is that a 30 joined a 20 with no signage. This would not be legal. But since 20 was the default for streetlights/no repeaters, it would still be legally enforceable as 20.

Nijinsky

To clarify, I sent off the S172 form on 24th October, confrming I was the driver and I sent a covering letter with it.

I had a response the following week giving me 3 choices of the speed awareness course, taking 3 points or going to court. I went on the NDORS speed awareness course site and selected a virtual course from Hartlepool Borough, as I've read that's the cheapest course on offer. I got a message saying I have chosen speed awareness, but there were no booking dates displayed, so I still haven't selected a date and paid for the course yet.

Regarding the link I posted to the speed awareness sign, the date is 2021, but that average speed check sign is still displayed exactly the same way today. There is no speed limit sign displayed anywhere on that road. I have driven up and down the road to check a few times.

To summarise from the latest posts, as I live in Wales where 20mph is the default limit for any street with streetlights, this charge is legally enforceable, even though there are no 20mph signs to indicate the change of speed limit from 30mph on the previous road to 20mph on where I was alleged to be speeding.

If that's correct, I don't have a case to argue do I, so I should do the speed awareness course?

TooManyPoints

I think a number of posts have made it clear that no repeaters are required within the default 20mph limit (in fact none are permitted) but a "terminal" "20" sign should be provided at the beginning of that limit. 

Once inside the 20 limit you should expect to see no signs reminding you of it - the streetlighting provides that. But if you drive from a higher limit into that default limit a terminal sign should be provided. That sign will also provide a "30" on its reverse, indicating the beginning of the 30 limit for those driving in the opposite direction.

As I said in my earlier post, how else is a driver to be informed where that limit begins - especially if both stretches have streetlighting? How long is he expected to travel before he realises he is no longer seeing "30" repeaters (especially as repeaters are only advisory, not mandatory and their spacing is not therefore prescribed)?

If you are certain that there is no "20" sign at the beginning of the stretch you have a case that the limit is not adequately signed. However, I would make absolutely sure. The default 20 limit has been in operation for some time in Wales now and although I would not be entirely surprised if the signage at the odd location had been overlooked, I would have thought by now somebody would have highlighted it.

Nijinsky

TooManyPoints said:

I think a number of posts have made it clear that no repeaters are required within the default 20mph limit (in fact none are permitted) but a "terminal" "20" sign should be provided at the beginning of that limit. 

Once inside the 20 limit you should expect to see no signs reminding you of it - the streetlighting provides that. But if you drive from a higher limit into that default limit a terminal sign should be provided. That sign will also provide a "30" on its reverse, indicating the beginning of the 30 limit for those driving in the opposite direction.

As I said in my earlier post, how else is a driver to be informed where that limit begins - especially if both stretches have streetlighting? How long is he expected to travel before he realises he is no longer seeing "30" repeaters (especially as repeaters are only advisory, not mandatory and their spacing is not therefore prescribed)?

If you are certain that there is no "20" sign at the beginning of the stretch you have a case that the limit is not adequately signed. However, I would make absolutely sure. The default 20 limit has been in operation for some time in Wales now and although I would not be entirely surprised if the signage at the odd location had been overlooked, I would have thought by now somebody would have highlighted it.

Thanks, I will take another slow drive down this road on the weekend in daylight to be 100% certain. There is definitely no 20mph sign on the entrance to this road and I didn't see an speed limit sign the previous 3 times I've chcked since.

I take the previous point that there is a difference between not seeing a speed limit sign to the speed limit sign definitely not being there. I will need to check there is definitely no speed limit sign on this road. I'm 99.9% certain, but I will check a final time.

If there is no speed limit sign and you think I have a case, do you think it will be worth me contesting in court? The speed awareness course will cost me £73. I will have to pay fees to contest in court won't I?