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Notice for intended prosecution for "speeding" at 29mph

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  • Mildly_Miffed
    Mildly_Miffed Posts: 1,578 Forumite
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    edited 24 October 2024 at 4:42PM
    Car_54 said:
    Anyway, I understand that the Welsh government have recognised the error of their ways, and councils will be allowed to revert to 30 on a case-by-case basis. Confused? - You will be.
    They always were...

    Head into my nearest town from the Welsh end, and the 30 starts at the same place it always did.

    It just now has 30 repeaters for the next 600m until you get to the start of the new 20.

    I rather suspect that the first sentence of the original post says everything we need to know, and the root cause of the issue is more one of not wanting to play nicely with something the OP finds politically unacceptable.

    It's over a year now since the default urban limit became 20, 17th September 2023.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 15,388 Forumite
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    Nijinsky said:
    Thanks for everyone's responses, especially to the majority who have tried to advise and help me.

    To those who are saying I haven't been observant and missed signs, I've confirmed there is an average speed check sign as you enter the road, but there is not one single speed limit sign saying the road has now changed to 20mph.

    There is a total lack of clarity in Wales. The 20mph limit is enforced on some roads with street lights, but not all roads with street lights. It's total confusion with people driving 20mph in 30mph zones, 30mph in 20mph zones and even 20mph on 60mph roads.

    I will fill in the form and wait for the police to contact me.
    I live in Wales, and whilst the 20 rule is a pain on some roads, it makes little difference on most.

    But I'm afraid it is an issue of observation, since the default speed limit is now 20, so lack of signs, simply means that it's 20. It's only when the speed limit is different to the default that you need a sign, such as the 30 signs I see on many roads, that used to be 30 but previously had no 30 signs.

    I appreciate it's a pain to get caught out, but in fairness that's still an observational issue, since you did 29mph on a 20mph road, whose 'lack of' signs, mean it's a 20mph road. This may sound backwards, but your observation of no signs, surely means you observed it was a 20mph road.
    Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.

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  • Nijinsky
    Nijinsky Posts: 78 Forumite
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    Nijinsky said:
    Thanks for everyone's responses, especially to the majority who have tried to advise and help me.

    To those who are saying I haven't been observant and missed signs, I've confirmed there is an average speed check sign as you enter the road, but there is not one single speed limit sign saying the road has now changed to 20mph.

    There is a total lack of clarity in Wales. The 20mph limit is enforced on some roads with street lights, but not all roads with street lights. It's total confusion with people driving 20mph in 30mph zones, 30mph in 20mph zones and even 20mph on 60mph roads.

    I will fill in the form and wait for the police to contact me.
    I live in Wales, and whilst the 20 rule is a pain on some roads, it makes little difference on most.

    But I'm afraid it is an issue of observation, since the default speed limit is now 20, so lack of signs, simply means that it's 20. It's only when the speed limit is different to the default that you need a sign, such as the 30 signs I see on many roads, that used to be 30 but previously had no 30 signs.

    I appreciate it's a pain to get caught out, but in fairness that's still an observational issue, since you did 29mph on a 20mph road, whose 'lack of' signs, mean it's a 20mph road. This may sound backwards, but your observation of no signs, surely means you observed it was a 20mph road.
    Maybe I haven't explained clearly enough.

    The road before is a 30mph limit, which has 30mph speed limit signs signposted.

    This 30mph road leads to a roundabout and after the roundabout, there is an average speed check sign. There are no speed limit signs on the road following the roundabout, there is only the average speed check sign.

    The speedcamerasuk.com database still has the road following the roundabout listed at a 30mph limit and as this road is a continuation of the previous 30mph road before the roundabout, it's natural to think it's still a 30mph speed limit.

    A new speed limit sign should be displayed on the road following the roundabout, to notify motorists the speed limit has changed, as stated by section 85 of the Road Traffic Act. Of course, I have sent a covering letter stating this and the Police have responded saying the speed limit signage is decided by the local authority and I should go through them instead.

    I have now tried booking an online speed awareness course, but the site has already gone down and there are no available dates online for the course I've selected, so I now have to waste more time and money phoning them to book. They're using every way they can think of to rob money from us innocent motorists!
  • Nijinsky said:

    Maybe I haven't explained clearly enough.

    The road before is a 30mph limit, which has 30mph speed limit signs signposted.

    This 30mph road leads to a roundabout and after the roundabout, there is an average speed check sign. There are no speed limit signs on the road following the roundabout, there is only the average speed check sign.

    The speedcamerasuk.com database still has the road following the roundabout listed at a 30mph limit and as this road is a continuation of the previous 30mph road before the roundabout, it's natural to think it's still a 30mph speed limit.

    A new speed limit sign should be displayed on the road following the roundabout, to notify motorists the speed limit has changed, as stated by section 85 of the Road Traffic Act. Of course, I have sent a covering letter stating this and the Police have responded saying the speed limit signage is decided by the local authority and I should go through them instead.
    Streetview link...?
  • boobyd
    boobyd Posts: 301 Forumite
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    This from Oxfordshire CC, is the Gatso new or been replaced? Or are OCC ......

    Existing Gatso devices

    Councils with a 30mph Gatso speed monitoring device in their area are advised to retain this asset to help maintain low speeds in the area. The devices can be built into the design of the scheme to ensure that side roads are still reduced to 20mph.  Existing Gatso cameras can’t be recalibrated to 20mph.

  • The speedcamerasuk.com database still has the road following the roundabout listed at a 30mph limit
    Forget about that. It has no bearing on the matter.
    I have now tried booking an online speed awareness course, but the site has already gone down and there are no available dates online for the course I've selected, so I now have to waste more time and money phoning them to book. They're using every way they can think of to rob money from us innocent motorists!
    Are you actually going to challenge this or have you accepted the allegation and will (if you can book it) do a speed awareness course to dispose of it? If the latter we can all save our time looking into it.

    From your latest description I have an inkling that you may have a case because it seems that the change of limit was not "adequately conveyed". The situation you now describe is equivalent (in England) to coming from a 40mph stretch into a 30mph "restricted road". In those circumstances the 40mph stretch would require repeaters and there should be a "terminal sign" at the beginning of the 30mph stretch. After that, provided there is a system of streetlighting, no further repeaters would be required (or indeed are permitted). I see the situation you describe (coming from a 30mph stretch to a 20mph stretch in Wales) as identical. How far beyond the roundabout is the "average speed check" sign and does it have a round red circle with "20" within it?. 

    It is true when the police say that no signs are required to convey the default limit on a restricted road. However, drivers would expect to see a terminal sign when there is a change of limit from something other than that default, especially if there is a system of streetlighting throughout.
     is the Gatso new or been replaced?
    If it is enforced by an average speed system then Gatso cameras are not used.
  • Okell
    Okell Posts: 2,654 Forumite
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    edited 1 November 2024 at 1:14PM
    @TooManyPoints -  so to clarify (for my benefit as much as the OP's) you are saying that when leaving the current 30mph limit and entering the restricted road 20mph limit, the OP should still have passed a terminal sign* marking the start of the 20mph limit, even though 20mph is the default limit in a restricted road in Wales?

    So if the OP didn't pass a terminal sign* when leaving the 30mph limit and entering the 20mph restricted road, there is no offence as the limit has not been adequately conveyed?

    Or is the simple absence of 20mph repeaters enough to convey the limit even if there is no terminal* sign?

    As others have asked it would assist if @Nijinsky could provde a Google maps street view link if it's up to date.


    *Large diameter white circular sign with "20" within red ring
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 15,388 Forumite
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    Nijinsky said:
    Nijinsky said:
    Thanks for everyone's responses, especially to the majority who have tried to advise and help me.

    To those who are saying I haven't been observant and missed signs, I've confirmed there is an average speed check sign as you enter the road, but there is not one single speed limit sign saying the road has now changed to 20mph.

    There is a total lack of clarity in Wales. The 20mph limit is enforced on some roads with street lights, but not all roads with street lights. It's total confusion with people driving 20mph in 30mph zones, 30mph in 20mph zones and even 20mph on 60mph roads.

    I will fill in the form and wait for the police to contact me.
    I live in Wales, and whilst the 20 rule is a pain on some roads, it makes little difference on most.

    But I'm afraid it is an issue of observation, since the default speed limit is now 20, so lack of signs, simply means that it's 20. It's only when the speed limit is different to the default that you need a sign, such as the 30 signs I see on many roads, that used to be 30 but previously had no 30 signs.

    I appreciate it's a pain to get caught out, but in fairness that's still an observational issue, since you did 29mph on a 20mph road, whose 'lack of' signs, mean it's a 20mph road. This may sound backwards, but your observation of no signs, surely means you observed it was a 20mph road.
    Maybe I haven't explained clearly enough.

    The road before is a 30mph limit, which has 30mph speed limit signs signposted.

    This 30mph road leads to a roundabout and after the roundabout, there is an average speed check sign. There are no speed limit signs on the road following the roundabout, there is only the average speed check sign.

    Thank you, that changes/clarifies the story somewhat, and I can now see what your point is. Though I've no (clear) idea if the change of speed rule(?) is less absolute when roads are rated at the default. That may be an excuse, or you have a point.

    If it helps, where I live, I'm pretty sure most (can't risk saying all) roads transitioning from 30mph to 20mph, do have a large(r) initial 20 sign. As they do/did from 40 to 30.

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  • so to clarify (for my benefit as much as the OP's) you are saying that when leaving the current 30mph limit and entering the restricted road 20mph limit, the OP should still have passed a terminal sign* marking the start of the 20mph limit, even though 20mph is the default limit in a restricted road in Wales?
    Yes. It's no different to leaving a 40mph stretch and entering a 30mph restricted road in England. I have never seen a situation like that where a terminal sign at the beginning of the lower limit was not provided. 

    A "restricted road" is one that has a system of streetlighting. The default on such roads is 30mph in England, 20mph in Wales. No signs are necessary to convey that limit - the streetlighting does that job. To impose a limit other than those defaults the local authority must issue a "Traffic Regulation Order" (TRO) and erect the appropriate signage.

    Disregarding terminal signs for the moment, the "appropriate signage" is repeaters. There is no legal requirement for repeaters and so no legislation covering the spacing of them; there is only guidance (aimed at ensuring the limit is adequately conveyed). So in the example here, the OP was travelling in what was a restricted road (and would normally be subject to the default 20mph limit) but there was (presumably) a TRO in force raising that limit to 30 and "30" repeaters were installed. 

    If the limit changes to the default 20mph, and there is no terminal sign, the only difference a driver would see (or, more accurately, would not see) is that the repeaters were no longer present. So how long does he give it (bearing in mind there is no prescribed distance for the repeaters to be spaced and in fact no legislation requiring them to be provided at all) before deciding that, since there are no longer any repeaters but there are lamp posts, that the default limit now applies? 

    The absence of any other signage is fine to convey a default limit to drivers already on a restricted road. But there must be some method of conveying a change when a driver moves from a different limit to the default other than relying on him to notice that there are no longer any repeaters. That method is a properly placed and compliant terminal sign.

    If this change to a lower limit really hasn't been properly conveyed I can't see a court convicting a driver in those circumstances.
  • MX5huggy
    MX5huggy Posts: 7,163 Forumite
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    edited 1 November 2024 at 3:05PM
    OK so you entered Cardiff Road here.

    https://maps.app.goo.gl/zzMaYVu5Yg4nZriT8?g_st=ic

    off the roundabout, all the street view is from before the introduction of the 20mph in Wales. But there is no 30 sign here but how do we know it’s 30 because all the entrances to the roundabout from road that are not 30 have 30 signs on them, the roundabout is all 30. I expect all those 20 signs are now 20’s so the roundabout is 20. I will check next time I’m there. 

    Here’s one set of the 30’s, you do have my sympathy approaching the roundabout you’re think about the lanes the lights cars from the right etc the 30 (or 20) limit sign is not important at that moment. 
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