Notice for intended prosecution for "speeding" at 29mph

Nijinsky

Unfortunately, I live in Wales and have recently fallen victim to the ridiculous 20mph speed limit change. I drove down a road which has always been 30mph, but I received a notice for intended prosecution by the South Wales Police as this is now apparently a 20mph road.

There is no 20mph speed limit sign on this road, so I appealed and posted a link to the speedcamerasuk.com site, showing this road is still listed as 30mph. The police replied saying "there is no requirements for there to be signs on 20mph road as any road with continuous streetlights should be considered a 20mph road".

In Wales, there are still 30mph roads with continuous streetlights and I believe the speed limit must be clearly displayed on every road, so I strongly disagree with their statement. Also, in accordance with section 85(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, speed limit signs must be present and erected and maintained by the national authority, so that a driver can observe the appropriate speed limit for that particular road.

The police are asking me to fill in a form giving my details and return it to them, under Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, otherwise I may get 6 points and a fine. Their response to my appeal states I can add a covering letter to the returned form to continue my appeal.

I find the wording from the South Wales Police interesting, as it's a notice of intended prosecution and they are intending on taking proceedings for my alleged offence. There is no information on what the charge is, whether it's for a fine, points or something else.

My appeal and the Police's response are below. Currently, I'm thinking I will fill in the form to send off with an attached covering letter to continue my appeal, but any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading and thanks in advance to any replies to help me.


My appeal:

I received your notice of intended prosecution for going 29mph on Cardiff Road, Hawthorn. I'm not disputing my speed - I was driving 29mph because this road has always been a 30mph speed limit.

I had no knowledge Cardiff Road, Hawthorn has been changed from a 30mph speed limit to a 20mph speed limit and I didn't see any signage confirming the speed limit change.

I have since driven down Cardiff Road, Hawthorn again. There is an average speed check sign entering Hawthorn from the Upper Boat roundabout direction, but there is no sign stating what the average speed check limit is. There are no 20mph signs visible. In fact, there are no speed limit signs on this road at all. Speed limit signs must be clearly visible and I didn't see one speed limit sign when driving down Cardiff Road, Hawthorn.

Also, the speedcamerasuk.com database states Cardiff Road is a 30mph speed limit. The description of where the speed camera on Cardiff Road is positioned - "heading to upper boat from Treforest on the main road right by the ambulance station from upper boat way 'Hawthorn Inn' (public house) on left", is the exact area I was recorded doing 29mph. See link: Rhydyfeln A4054 - Cardiff Road 30mph Gatso speed camera in Rhondda Cynon Taff (speedcamerasuk.com)

There is no clear, visible signage showing Cardiff Road, Hawthorn is now a 20mph speed limit and the speedcamerasuk.com database states Cardiff Road is still a 30mph speed limit. Therefore, I'm appealing to request for this notice to be cancelled.

Regards,

Ross


South Wales Police's response:

Good morning,

After new legislation from the Welsh Government came into place on September 17th, 2023, all restricted roads in Wales are to be considered 20mph roads unless it is stated otherwise by signage, not 30mph.
Therefore, there is no requirements for there to be signs on 20mph road as any road with continuous streetlights should be considered a 20mph road. This new legislation has been in place since September last year and news of the new rules has been spread extensively prior to and following the start of legislation.

Instead, you should look for speed limit signs, road markings, and streetlights as an indicator of the speed limit.

I now advise completing and returning the Notice of Intended prosecution you have received to us at the earliest convenience. If you still wish to appeal this offence you can do so by writing a covering letter and attaching, it with the form mentioned above.

daveyjp

Respond to the NIP.  The time for a defence is later.

I wouldn't trust a speed camera website which relies on updates from users.

Check the location via this link:

https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/

Brie

pondering......how would a driver from England know that they are on a 20 mph road in Wales?  there are lots of roads that criss cross over the border and might potentially switch from 30 to 20 and back again without any signs.  

Asking in part as we're off to Wales shortly but know we'll be staying close to the border crossing Offa's Dyke most days.

Okell

I'm confused...

You can't appeal against a NIP/s172 request so it was a waste of time trying to do so. 

All you can do is to reply naming the driver.  If you haven't already done so you need to ensure that you do within 28 days of service of the notice.  If you don't you'll have a bigger problem than worrying about a speeding offence.

If you want to include a covering letter explaining why you think the 20 limit was not adequately signed then do so, but I doubt the police will drop it.  Assuming you clearly identify yourself as the driver on the s172 form, don't include anything in a covering letter that might cast doubt on your driver nomination otherwise the police might treat it as a failure to identify.

"I find the wording from the South Wales Police interesting, as it's a notice of intended prosecution and they are intending on taking proceedings for my alleged offence. There is no information on what the charge is, whether it's for a fine, points or something else."

I don't think there's anything unusual about the use of the words "intended" or "alleged".  I suspect the wording is pretty much prescribed by the legislation.

And presumably the notice makes it pretty clear what the allegd offence is as you've titled this thread "NIP for speeding at 29mph".

You might want to consider posting at Speeding and other criminal offences

Herzlos

Didn't Wales make the default urban speed limit 20? So if it's got streetlights and no signs saying otherwise, it's 20.

So if you cross into Wales and you don't see anything saying otherwise, it's a 20.

MX5huggy

Brie said:

pondering......how would a driver from England know that they are on a 20 mph road in Wales?  there are lots of roads that criss cross over the border and might potentially switch from 30 to 20 and back again without any signs.  

Asking in part as we're off to Wales shortly but know we'll be staying close to the border crossing Offa's Dyke most days.

It’s really simple, there are signs at the start of every speed zone (ie when the speed limit changes). The OP is making a meal of not seeing them if they drop a pin from google maps exactly where they were and the route they took I’ll find the relevant speed sign on Friday. What you don’t get in 20’s are repeater signs (i think the requirement for these has been removed in England as well). 

If they had just said speed limits are changing follow the signs instead of any stuff about street lights it wouldn’t have caused confusion. 

Keep_pedalling

The OP is looking at 6 points a fine and a massive jump in the cost of insurance if they don’t respond to the NIP and name the driver. You can’t appeal to the police if you think you have a case then you will have to argue it in court. There will have been a sign that you were entering a 20 mph limit, but there would have been no repeaters as 20 if the new default for restricted roads.

gm0

Not on a winner

AFAIK - the devolved national "20 by default" unless signed otherwise, no repeaters is "how it is".  Lack of repeaters not being a get out of jail free card. 

It's not terrible signage in a lot of areas - where a trunk route with an NSL or a 50 on it drops in and out of tiny villages. But there are confusing places as well even on major routes. I have caught myself failing to remember or being unsure - cursing the lack of repeaters - and I travel across certain Wales routes many times per year.

It has caused rather a fuss.

Some villages lost bus services as schedules became unviable without doubling up buses and costs on little used routes.   Some routes meander more than a little.  And now meander less - missing out one of the prior villages. 

Devolved government in Cardiff are now letting local councils decide to put certain roads back to 30 or as needed.
where it makes a big difference to outcomes - congestion etc. or other factors.  But it will mean more signage change.
The area on the border around places like Pant is fun.  Wales/England/Wales.  Should take some footage for speed awareness course videos.

There was a "soft launch" where they didn't enforce that firmly for a bit (about a year?) - and did some motorist advice with community support officers - "It's 20 now.  Mind how you go". 

But I think that grace period is ending and wasn't carte blanche - it was soft launch not "no launch" and do as you please. 

Honestly - if it was me - i'd name the driver. 
And if offered the online speed awareness course - grin and bear it. 
The points are well worth avoiding and that's the easy way.

There may be a legal "fight club" for this one. There usually is.  But it's not as though Cardiff were unaware of substantial opposition to it when they prepared the laws to put it in.  I've not heard of any systemic workaround for tickets.

fatbelly

In England 10% plus 7 would see you offered a speeding course. Not sure if Wales works the same way

Jellynailer

My EV has a button on the steering wheel to set the maximum speed and switch between 20,30,40.  Its brilliant for travelling across country through villages but with open stretches as well.  In town I only ever set it at 20 due to bad signage.  I don't know if this function can be installed in petrol or diesel vehicles,  If so, it would seem to be the best option for people living in or travelling to Wales.

Aretnap

Brie said:

pondering......how would a driver from England know that they are on a 20 mph road in Wales?  there are lots of roads that criss cross over the border and might potentially switch from 30 to 20 and back again without any signs.

There are few or no roads where that would happen because the default 20mph limit applies only in built up areas (roads with streetlights), and the border tends not to go through the middle of towns or villages. If there are any places where it does, Is expect a sign in the border.