Notice for intended prosecution for "speeding" at 29mph

user1977

Brie said:

pondering......how would a driver from England know that they are on a 20 mph road in Wales?  there are lots of roads that criss cross over the border and might potentially switch from 30 to 20 and back again without any signs.  

Can you find an example of one where the speed limit would change at the border?

In general, the mantra that "ignorance of the law is no defence" must include an implied "ignorance of which country you're currently in"! Plenty of other ways in which laws change when you cross a border.

Mildly_Miffed

I live very close to the English/Welsh border.

Anybody saying "but how could I possibly be expected to know?" is dissembling and needs to improve their basic observation.

As you enter my local town, you go from NSL to a clearly signed 30 (with repeaters, since there's no streetlights), then a clearly signed 20, followed by repeaters. Then you cross the (signed) border into Wales, and 20 repeaters are no longer required. As you come out of the other side of town, the 20 gives way to a clearly signed 30 with repeaters.

The 20 limit is less than a mile long, so in the hugely unlikely event you had a clear run completely through with zero traffic, you would lose less than a minute compared to 30.

The usual rule applies...
Streetlights, no repeaters? Default Urban.
England - 30.
Wales - 20.

There are roads that cross back and forth across the border without signage each time you cross it - but they're not urban, so no repeaters means NSL. Even then, signage makes it very obvious which side of the border you are - just look for ARAF for bends, and ILDIWCH at junctions.
Mostly, though, the border is actually signed, as any county border is even within England or Wales.

facade

Nijinsky said:

<snip>

I find the wording from the South Wales Police interesting, as it's a notice of intended prosecution and they are intending on taking proceedings for my alleged offence. There is no information on what the charge is, whether it's for a fine, points or something else.

<snip>

The wording is correct. They fully intend to prosecute the driver for this dastardly crime (or prosecute the person named on the s172 for the even more dastardly crime of not snitching up the driver).

What normally happens is that out of the goodness of their hearts they will not proceed with the prosecution if the driver admits that they were driving and accepts the kind offer of a fixed penalty fine and points on their licence.

The alternative is to not accept the kind offer, then they will carry out their intention to prosecute and the case will go to Court. This temerity is severely punished with much larger penalties as it generates more work and uses up Court time that they would much rather use for other cases.

Note that accepting a fixed penalty is not an admission of guilt, and it is not a conviction* - you haven't been convicted of anything if there is no prosecution.

However, the fixed penalty is recorded on the Police Database, and must be declared until the rules in the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 say that it is spent. (A rose by any other name.....)

* This means that once you accept a fixed penalty you can't appeal it, even if new evidence comes to light.

Anyway you must respond to the S172 with the name of the driver. You can attach whatever you want, they will ignore it, as the bottom line is that in Wales all roads are 20MPH unless there is signage indicating otherwise.

Goudy

user1977 said:

Brie said:

pondering......how would a driver from England know that they are on a 20 mph road in Wales?  there are lots of roads that criss cross over the border and might potentially switch from 30 to 20 and back again without any signs.  

Can you find an example of one where the speed limit would change at the border?

Knighton on the A488.
The border is the river Teme.

As you pass over the bridge by the railway station the speed limit changes.

Going into Wales it's marked at 20 mph.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.3450263,-3.0432893,3a,75y,232.82h,77.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9SZQ3uJtf7CvO7uRSa1GOg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyMC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D


Coming out of Wales it's marked at 30 mph.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.3448272,-3.043595,3a,75y,56.21h,77.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCvTEIUivCb2mN3_4Ra-PpA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyMC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

But you are right about ignorance of the law. It's no defence.

badmemory

It all sounds like a good reason not to go near Wales.  With no signage it is much too easy to forget, which I assume is the reason for no signage.

EssexHebridean

Plenty of areas in England where no repeaters are used within 20 limits, too. 

RandomTourist

You have some clear options.

1. Do nothing. That will in time lead to conviction for failing to furnish details of the driver. 6 points, big fine, higher insurance premiums for years.

2. Respond naming the driver. That will result in the police contacting the driver (yourself!) and probably offering fixed penalty of £100 and 3 points (just possibly a speed awareness course, in which case about £100, and no points).. At that stage you can:

2a. Accept and pay up.

2b. Go to court and plead not guilty. On the basis of the information you've given us, you'll be found guilty. 3 points, fine plus victim surcharge plus prosecution costs of around £600.

Your choice.

TooManyPoints

Most of your points have been covered. Just a few from me.

Also, in accordance with section 85(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, speed limit signs must be present and erected and maintained by the national authority,…

Only where they are required. They are not required on “restricted roads” (which are roads with a system of streetlighting spaced no more than 200 yards apart) unless the limit is anything other than the default.

Local authorities have powers to impose a different default on their restricted roads as they think fit. The “local authority” in Wales changed theirs from 30mph to 20mph.

I find the wording from the South Wales Police interesting, as it's a notice of intended prosecution and they are intending on taking proceedings for my alleged offence. 

A Notice of Intended Prosecution must be served on either the driver or the person shown as the Registered Keeper within 14 days of the alleged offence. If it is not then a prosecution cannot succeed. The police must do this even if they intend offering the driver a course or a fixed penalty because (a) they don’t know if the driver will be eligible for a course (because they don’t know who the driver is) and (b) if they don’t, the driver can simply ignore any out-of-court offers and no prosecution will succeed.

There is no information on what the charge is…

Are you sure? If it didn’t, how do you know they intend to prosecute the driver for speeding, that it was 29mph in a 20mph limit and where the alleged offence took place?

You should also be clear that you are not “appealing” anything. You don’t have anything to appeal at the moment. The NIP is not a parking ticket. It is a warning that  a criminal prosecution is being considered and the accompanying “request for driver’s details” must be completed even if you had a stone cold defence to the underlying charge.

If you respond to that request promptly by naming yourself you should be offered  course for that speed (provided you have not done one in the last three years). This will cost you about £100 and three hours or so of your time. If you don’t fancy that  fixed penalty (£100 and three points) is the alternative. Plead Not Guilty in court and be convicted (which is fairly certain from your description) and it will cost you the thick end of £1,000. 

Mildly_Miffed

badmemory said:

It all sounds like a good reason not to go near Wales.  With no signage it is much too easy to forget, which I assume is the reason for no signage.

You manage to cope with exactly the same signage elsewhere in the country, I presume?

facade

Mildly_Miffed said:

badmemory said:

It all sounds like a good reason not to go near Wales.  With no signage it is much too easy to forget, which I assume is the reason for no signage.

You manage to cope with exactly the same signage elsewhere in the country, I presume?

Presumably a lifetime of "streetlights = 30" plus momentarily forgetting that you are in a different country with different speed limits catches a lot of English people out.