The big fat Electric Vehicle bashing thread.

Ibrahim5

A 999 call will take hours. Would be faster charging your car. Just find someone with an ICE to take you instead.

JKenH

Deleted_User said:

JKenH said:

I am new to this thread and haven’t read all the preceding 37 pages so I apologise if this point has already been made. Background: My wife owns an 11 year old Kia Picanto which does less than 2000 miles a year on local trips. I also have a diesel motorhome for holidays and race meetings. I own a Nissan Leaf 40kWh and am quite happy with it other than for a few instances when problems with chargers have caused delays/detours/additional stress which I wouldn’t have with an ICE car. The benefits of virtually free charging at home out weigh the drawbacks but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any.

Now to my point - spontaneity. Last week we were staying on a campsite in the motorhome 133 miles from home and were due to travel back first thing the following day. We had a leisurely evening meal in the motorhome and were deciding what to do in the evening. It was a lovely evening, but already having been on a long walk earlier, the preferred option was to lounge around in the van reading. The weather forecast for the next day looked good so on impulse we decided just to drive home in the evening. My diesel motorhome has a range of 600 miles and there was plenty of fuel in the tank so we just set off home driving at 70mph all the way without stoping. The fuel consumption was 29mpg for the trip - it hardly varies no matter how I drive it. 

Because I have a vehicle with a 600 mile range that I can top up with fuel in 5-10 minutes we can make spur of the minute decisions to undertake a reasonably long journey without any planning being necessary. Let’s just substitute a car for the motorhome to make it easier to relate to. If the car was ICE it wouldn’t matter whether the tank was full or not, it would only add another 5-10 minutes to the journey to fill up if empty and we could have been just as spontaneous. With an EV with a decent sized battery it would have needed to have been almost fully charged before we would contemplate a journey like that. (The Leaf even with a full battery wouldn’t have made it at 70mph). But being on a sightseeing holiday in the UK we would have been using the car, as we did the motorhome, that day so it would have needed charging. That would have been sufficient to put us off making the trip. Yes we could have stopped and had a break en route but we wouldn’t want to and we wouldn’t want the stress of whether we could find a vacant working charger on the motorway.

In an ICE vehicle you have more freedom to just jump in the car and go, no planning required.

On the same theme my wife recounted to me a story of a friend who has an electric car which she is able to charge at work. Just as she arrived at her work she got a call from school asking if she could come straight away and pick her child up as he was ill. Her battery was virtually empty (as she had planned to charge at work during the day) and she didn’t have enough charge to get to the school, let alone get home from there. This is the very scenario that my wife worries about if we just had an EV. Just occasionally she has to shoot off at very short notice and drive 100 miles to look after the grandkids. She refuses to have an EV for that reason even though she enjoys driving the Leaf. 

It is those unexpected journeys that can catch one out as charging an EV isn’t instantaneous and it is not good policy to continually charge to 100% on the off chance that your plans might change.

As I said, I am content with my Leaf and really appreciate the EV driving experience but as this thread is intended to reflect both the ups and downs of EV ownership I just thought I would throw this in. 

For me if I was low and needed to do an unexpected journey, I’d just go and get a rapid charge. Our nearest one is 10 minutes away and would take less than 30 minutes to charge. So not really a problem for me. The grandkids can wait an extra half hour!

I entirely respect your point of view. You have qualified it “for me”. It probably wouldn’t be a big issue for me either but unfortunately for my wife it would be.

We all have different perspectives and all are valid. We make choices and decisions based on our own perspective and values even if they do not appear rational to others. I think it is important when we seek to dismiss concerns that we understand that, faced with the same facts others do have concerns. It doesn’t mean they have dismissed the facts they may apply different weight to the advantages and disadvantages identified.

I appreciate the smooth driving characteristics of an EV and the fact that most of the  time I can charge it relatively cheaply in the comfort of my garage. I get considerable satisfaction that at times (like now) the surplus generation from my solar panels is charging my car. 

What I most dislike about EVs is the poor charging experiences I have had and because of that I do experience charger anxiety. Not all charger experiences are bad, in fact I had one very good one where arriving at a charger at an EV specialist’s garage, several vehicles were moved to enable me to access the charger and because I didn’t have the right app on my phone the owner’s wife started the charge for me and let me know how much I owed at the end of the charge. No surcharge was added and my wife and I were served complimentary tea and biscuits while the car charged. I have had a couple of free rapid charges but I have had numerous instances of chargers being blocked or out of order or not having the right RFID card or app and spending 20 minutes on the phone to get a charger to work. It’s not all bad but when you have by modern standards a relatively small battery you can spend a lot of time at chargers and you do become a little more aware of the problems with the charging network than, perhaps, those who charge 99% of the time at home.

On balance though, for me like many others, the good bits of EV ownership outweigh the bad bits. For my wife though and, perhaps, many more like her, the reverse is true. Both of us understand, however, the other’s perspective and don’t deny there there are both good and bad bits to EV ownership. I believe if we could all recognise that the concerns some might have about EV ownership are in fact genuine concerns to them there would be a more rational discussion and positions would be less polarised on both sides. 

I think a very valid point was made that those people who have EVs have them because they want them. This might be ideological or financial. There is still a majority of the population, though, who don’t have EVs and that is for a reason. I have seen many reasons given about why an EV won’t work for a particular individual and the response is usually dismissive, and generally supported by an argument of why an EV works for them. If a few more responses were prefaced by “this is why an EV works for me, I can see why it might not work for you” we would, perhaps, have a more productive discussion. People who do 99% of their charging at home and have never had a problem with a public charger are never going to relate to someone who has no access to a home charger and may appear antagonistic.

JKenH

yessuz said:

Ibrahim5 said:

I get the bit that most journeys are short. That's why I cycle everywhere. So electric cars will encourage people to pop to the shops etc more often because it's cheaper. Discourage car sharing. Discourage public transport. For longer journeys they are harder to use so will encourage flying. Maybe that's why France is banning short flights where the train can be used instead. I think my usage of cycling and long car journeys with my ICE is better environmentally than electric cars and flying. If only the train was cheaper.

Actually shorter the journey, higher the wh/mile

Why EVs are harder to use for a long journey!? Can you please elaborate?

I was surprised at this question as well - I would have thought it would be self evident. Both small and large EVs typically have half to two thirds of the range of their diesel or petrol equivalents so that necessitates more stops. In fact I don’t think I have ever made a long trip in an ICE car that was not within its range on one tank of fuel. (That is not to say I haven’t filled up because with ICE cars fuelling is so easy and reliable that fuel delivery strikes aside - a few days in the last 2 decades - I have never failed to fill up at the first garage I have called at.) More charging stops means more time spent not travelling and more potential for problems with chargers. Unless you own a Tesla there is a significant risk that you will come across a charger that is out of order or occupied. This can be countered to some extent by planning ahead, checking the status of chargers etc but things can change between you planning a stop and arriving. Apps aren’t always up to date either. The very fact you have to plan charging stops is time consuming (again unless you have a Tesla which does it for you).

It is often suggested that the time taken to charge is not wasted as one would be stopping anyway for food or a natural break. That is in a perfect world which we all know it isn’t. 

Perhaps I can give a personal example of a trip I made in my EV to demonstrate. In December 2021 my daughter son in law and 3 year old grandson flew into Manchester airport from Thailand for Christmas.I live in Lincolnshire.  I went to collect them and charged the car fully before I set off and again just before I got to the airport. I had sufficient charge to get home, no problem. I collected them and on the the way back the M60 matrix signs showed the route I had come in on and was going to use for the return leg, (A57 Woodhead Pass) was closed due to snow. I was forced therefore to divert via the M62 which was 30 miles further. Now I didn’t have enough charge to get home. Not a problem we can stop at Birch Services on the M60. I pulled into the services car park and dropped the family off to get some food at the door of the services (it was snowing and they were in Thailand clothes) and drove to the charger a few yards away. There was a queue! When I did get chance to go on the charger I couldn’t start it. I wasn’t low on charge but needed a top up to get home so drove to Hartshead Moor where the only charger was out of order. I carried on driving while son in law searched for a charger and found one off the motorway at a MacDonalds near Castleford. Twenty minutes later we were on our way home again. During this journey 3 yr old grandson who didn’t sleep on the plane was getting very fractious and the extended journey, particularly times not moving did not help. You might say we were unlucky that it took 3 stops to find a working charger and the food stop didn’t coincide with a successful charge but this is actually the real world of EV charging. It isn’t this bad every time but you really never quite know how these trips are going to work out. 

I hope this helps you understand why EVs are harder to use for a long journey. 

Martyn1981

Couple of items I've pinched from other threads today, that will help a little towards easing some charging problems. Early days, and baby steps, but it all helps.


Gulleys for running charging cables across pavements. I've checked the FAQs but can't find any info on LA rules and regs, so obviously this will need local research to see if it's permissible:

Charge your electric vehicle safely and securely at home with Gul-e.




Tesla begins (today at 1pm) to open some of its UK supercharger stations up to other vehicles:

Tesla opens 15 of the 98 UK Supercharger sites to 3rd Parties

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

Tesla begins (today at 1pm) to open some of its UK supercharger stations up to other vehicles:

Tesla opens 15 of the 98 UK Supercharger sites to 3rd Parties

That’s great news. I wonder though given how poor the non-Tesla charging network in the UK is if UK Tesla sites will get blocked by non-Teslas. I don’t think I will be able to charge my Leaf at a supercharger but it might take the pressure off some of the non-Tesla chargers freeing up some Chademo ports.

Petriix

With EV ownership I think it's important to distinguish between things that are changed and the things that are prevented. Here's what I think you absolutely can't do with an EV:

• long distances in a short time
• driving in shifts then swapping driver
• long journeys on peak routes at peak times
• towing heavy loads
• unplanned journeys immediately after a long journey

Here's what you have to do differently:

• planning and research
• driving slower
• using different routes - slower roads and shorter distances
• longer/more frequent stops
• breaking log journeys into shorter legs
• accept that the range will gradually reduce - maybe 20% lower after 10 years.

Here are the potential issues - and ways to mitigate:

• chargers blocked or not working - plan a route with multiple reliable charging options
• bad weather reducing usable range - drive slower, adapt travel time around the weather
• queues for chargers - avoid peak routes at peak times
• chargers require multiple apps etc. - plan ahead and ensure you've downloaded what you need in advance

Here are the unmitigatable barriers:

• driving pattern incompatible: need to travel long distances at short notice; no time to charge between journeys
• regular journey has no suitable charging options - rare, but not totally impossible
• high initial price impossible to finance
• no access to affordable charging - not necessarily a total barrier to entry, but rules out much of the benefit
• need to tow a large caravan or trailer

Here are the benefits:

• massively reduced emissions over the total lifecycle
• zero tailpipe emissions into the residential areas through which you drive
• massively reduced brake dust
• very low running costs
• overall lower total cost of ownership
• instant torque, rapid acceleration
• low noise and vibration
• less time wasted refueling overall

Now, as technology improves, many of the issues will reduce. Stories of struggling with chargers on a 130 mile journey simply evaporate once you're driving a > 60kWh EV rather than a 40kWh Leaf with its near obsolete ChaDeMo port; you simply wouldn't need to charge. Indeed many such anecdotes are more reflective of the earlier iterations of the technology and, by mid decade, 300 miles + range will become ubiquitous. The greater the range, the less need to charge other than when convenient - usually at home or work etc.

Yes, undertaking long journeys in short-range EVs is challenging. Many people are able to adapt; willingness is a different issue. A (large) minority of people have (currently) insurmountable barriers that make EVs impractical for them.

[Deleted User]

JKenH said:

Perhaps I can give a personal example of a trip I made in my EV to demonstrate. In December 2021 my daughter son in law and 3 year old grandson flew into Manchester airport from Thailand for Christmas.I live in Lincolnshire.  I went to collect them and charged the car fully before I set off and again just before I got to the airport. I had sufficient charge to get home, no problem. I collected them and on the the way back the M60 matrix signs showed the route I had come in on and was going to use for the return leg, (A57 Woodhead Pass) was closed due to snow. I was forced therefore to divert via the M62 which was 30 miles further. Now I didn’t have enough charge to get home. Not a problem we can stop at Birch Services on the M60. I pulled into the services car park and dropped the family off to get some food at the door of the services (it was snowing and they were in Thailand clothes) and drove to the charger a few yards away. There was a queue! When I did get chance to go on the charger I couldn’t start it. I wasn’t low on charge but needed a top up to get home so drove to Hartshead Moor where the only charger was out of order. I carried on driving while son in law searched for a charger and found one off the motorway at a MacDonalds near Castleford. Twenty minutes later we were on our way home again. During this journey 3 yr old grandson who didn’t sleep on the plane was getting very fractious and the extended journey, particularly times not moving did not help. You might say we were unlucky that it took 3 stops to find a working charger and the food stop didn’t coincide with a successful charge but this is actually the real world of EV charging. It isn’t this bad every time but you really never quite know how these trips are going to work out. 

I hope this helps you understand why EVs are harder to use for a long journey. 

Thanks for this example.

yessuz was in complete denial and thought I was nitpicking when I told him the nearest rapid charger to me (and coincidentally the nearest rapid charger to Manchester Airport) had been out of service for at least 8 days and had a raft of negative experiences along with most of the other fast or rapid chargers in a 5 miles radius also being out of action.

And I'm not trying to point score either, just make sure that the infrastructure is better for the 98.8% of drivers that don't yet own an EV, especially when 40% of them won't have at home charging.

Ibrahim5

Yessuz decided that I don't drive in France. Hilarious. I drive a diesel with a dpf which isn't good for short journeys so I can see how such a diesel vehicle combined with an EV for short journeys would be an ideal combination. If I worked say 30 miles from home I would really want an EV. I don't work and do all my short journeys by bicycle so at the moment it just doesn't work for me. Strange how this thread suddenly got a bit more sensible after JKenH appeared.

Martyn1981

Petriix said:

With EV ownership I think it's important to distinguish between things that are changed and the things that are prevented. Here's what I think you absolutely can't do with an EV:

• long distances in a short time
• driving in shifts then swapping driver
• long journeys on peak routes at peak times
• towing heavy loads
• unplanned journeys immediately after a long journey

Here's what you have to do differently:

• planning and research
• driving slower
• using different routes - slower roads and shorter distances
• longer/more frequent stops
• breaking log journeys into shorter legs
• accept that the range will gradually reduce - maybe 20% lower after 10 years.

Here are the potential issues - and ways to mitigate:

• chargers blocked or not working - plan a route with multiple reliable charging options
• bad weather reducing usable range - drive slower, adapt travel time around the weather
• queues for chargers - avoid peak routes at peak times
• chargers require multiple apps etc. - plan ahead and ensure you've downloaded what you need in advance

Here are the unmitigatable barriers:

• driving pattern incompatible: need to travel long distances at short notice; no time to charge between journeys
• regular journey has no suitable charging options - rare, but not totally impossible
• high initial price impossible to finance
• no access to affordable charging - not necessarily a total barrier to entry, but rules out much of the benefit
• need to tow a large caravan or trailer

Here are the benefits:

• massively reduced emissions over the total lifecycle
• zero tailpipe emissions into the residential areas through which you drive
• massively reduced brake dust
• very low running costs
• overall lower total cost of ownership
• instant torque, rapid acceleration
• low noise and vibration
• less time wasted refueling overall

Now, as technology improves, many of the issues will reduce. Stories of struggling with chargers on a 130 mile journey simply evaporate once you're driving a > 60kWh EV rather than a 40kWh Leaf with its near obsolete ChaDeMo port; you simply wouldn't need to charge. Indeed many such anecdotes are more reflective of the earlier iterations of the technology and, by mid decade, 300 miles + range will become ubiquitous. The greater the range, the less need to charge other than when convenient - usually at home or work etc.

Yes, undertaking long journeys in short-range EVs is challenging. Many people are able to adapt; willingness is a different issue. A (large) minority of people have (currently) insurmountable barriers that make EVs impractical for them.

Great summary. The 10(ish) years of BEV's so far have taught many lessons, and the vehicles are improving fast. The main problem for deployment at the market is actually supply, which exceeds demand, but that at least gives the UK Gov some extra time to get their act in gear for national charging policies.

TBF, I think it's reasonable, or at least understandable that many base their concerns on older tech, since the early news, being 'new' is often of more interest than let's face it, the pretty boring news of steady improvements. Look at the older thread with all the negatives based around 10-30 mile Leaf ranges. These fears stick for some time, but will slowly resolve as the reality of modern BEV's are enjoyed. [Can't believe I'm saying 'modern' given the short timeline, shows how fast things are moving. UK could be 20% BEV sales this year, possibly 50% by mid decade, if normality ever returns.]

One point, and this may be a bit controversial, it certainly is in my head where it's bubbling about, but that's the issue of driving slower. Absolutely a great point for getting more range out of a given battery charge*. But, if you have a decent battery size and crucially (absolutely crucial) a good ultra-fast charging network, then it may be faster to charge a bit longer than driving slower.  For instance driving at 70mph v's 60mph, will consume more energy, but add only a couple of minutes to a charging session after 200 miles, especially as the extra charge will be at the 'bottom' of the battery when it charges faster. I'm not suggesting going faster is better, just that going slower may not be a required penalty for the adoption of BEV's for longer mileage journeys.

As an example, my Tesla 3 did about 4 miles/kWh at 70. That's 250Wh/mile. Last year I visited some friends across 4 locations in two days, and clocked up nearly 600 miles. The bulk of the trip was on motorways at about 85 and largely flowing with the traffic (some 50 sections for emissions reductions). For the whole 587 miles, I averaged 272Wh/mile, about 3.7m/kWh. Purely an example, so don't take it too seriously, but that means over say 200 miles the time penalty for charging would be about 22W x 200 miles = 4.4kWh, which at 250kW charge rate is about 1min.

[Edit - Thinking about it, the 250Wh/mile was for shorter trips, and the average falling throughout, since at the start more energy is consumed warming/cooling the interior and battery pack. So perhaps a 240Wh/m figure is fairer, so a total difference of 32W x 200 miles = 6.4kWh, and an extra 1.5 mins. M]

*A few years ago I was doing some 60 mile trips in the 70 mile Leaf in winter. Day one I was doing 60mph down the M4 in ECO mode, with heated seats and steering wheel, but the cabin heat off. Day two picking up my friend 10 miles from the destination, he suggested taking his car and charging the Leaf at his house. So return journey of only 50 miles at 70mph, normal driving mode and cabin heater on. Both trips ended with me having 10 miles to spare. [The early Leaf's steering actually feels a bit light at over 70mph.]

JKenH

I find getting a tow (slipstream) makes quite a difference. I am always surprised how good the economy is on busy motorways.