The big fat Electric Vehicle bashing thread.

yessuz

But there are hundreds of thousands of chargers so no issue here

Martyn1981

Something like this would be great for city use, and parking, but would probably fail the new 'French 480 mile' test!

Starts at €12.5k for 6kWh / 56 mile range, and will go upto 14kWh / 142 miles. 0-30mph 5s, so no confidence issues at T-junctions and roundabouts. 4hrs to charge from a normal 13A socket.

Microlino Pioneer Edition Priced At $13,000

Micro Mobility is a Swiss company that specializes in moving people from place to place in small, energy efficient packages that use a minimum of precious resources. One of its products is the Microlino, a modern day iteration of the original Iso Isetta that first went into production in Italy in 1953. 

Microlino web-site

Ibrahim5

Quick Google 30,000 in whole of France, 42,000 in UK. No way enough to cope with black Saturday. Millions are travelling.

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

Something like this would be great for city use, and parking, but would probably fail the new 'French 480 mile' test!

Starts at €12.5k for 6kWh / 56 mile range, and will go upto 14kWh / 142 miles. 0-30mph 5s, so no confidence issues at T-junctions and roundabouts. 4hrs to charge from a normal 13A socket.

Microlino Pioneer Edition Priced At $13,000

Micro Mobility is a Swiss company that specializes in moving people from place to place in small, energy efficient packages that use a minimum of precious resources. One of its products is the Microlino, a modern day iteration of the original Iso Isetta that first went into production in Italy in 1953. 

Microlino web-site

Looks like a good idea and would certainly have some market.  The top-speed is perhaps lower than ideal.

Do you under-estimate the ingenuity of our Government to outlaw a good idea such as this?  Like e-scooters?

Which makes me think - I wonder how much this product would be competing with e-scooters and electric mopeds?

yessuz said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Herzlos said:

I think the target market is actually more likely to be company cars where the savings are even more drastic.

I'm also not sure a price difference of £150 or 27% to get an EV is that bad, assuming we're talking like-for-like spec. It's quite easy for someone to save the difference in fuel alone, but you're then still missing the rest of the picture around convenience, experience and so on before you even get to image. A green image is very desirable, predominantly for businesses.

For someone who can charge at home, it's much more convenient to just plug it in and never need to go to a petrol station. EV charging bays tend to be in better parts of the car park. They are quieter to drive, faster, have pre-heating, app control and so on that you don't get with an ICE car. 

I'm not aware of a single EV user that'd want to go back to combustion.

Though I think the better conversation would be around a more popular car, like the Corsa since I think it's been in the top 10 sales charges as long as I can remember.

I agree with all of that (though the company car part may be up against lease limits as I referenced higher up thread).  For the Corsa, the "from" difference for EV is still around £10k more than the ICE.

All the stuff about being able to benefit from the savings to offset (or more than offset) the extra payments is not where my query is.

If you would buy a £20k car but the EV is £30k, can you get the lending to cover the extra £10k?
Lenders for car loans are not doing a full affordability look in the same was as mortgage lenders.
There is not, so far as I am aware, the assessment of the extra £150 monthly versus the saving in fuel cost.

The £10k delta seems to be a near constant, so "would buy £30k Kodiaq" becomes "now want £40k Enyaq" and so on.  It is only when you get to the top of the market (S-Class vs EQS) that the £10k delta becomes insignificant. 
I truly don't know whether / how the finance is available for the "normal" new car buyer to borrow the extra £10k.  This is key as, without "normal" new car buyers going EV, "normal" used car buyers will simply never see the stock as used.

eh? You check your affordability and choose what is suitable for you. simple as that.
maybe try to check both financing options yourself and see if you can get 130 gbp a month more on the 10k more expensive vehicle?

I have a suspicion that new car financing works entirely on the list price. indeed it does not use "valuation" like in case of mortgages and their affordability checks most probably are more flexible in many cases. Because car financing in most cases is secured against the car itself. but since it is very liquid asset (other than house) there's extremely low risk for financing company to provide additional 10k loan on the car which cost 10k more as the list price, meaning that remaining value of the car at the end of the finance will be higher.

I just do not understand where your problem is.

p.s. I think there are more of second hand cars that once were the fleet or business cars. https://www.am-online.com/news/market-insight/2021/06/04/dealers-maximise-may-new-car-sales-find-73-865-private-buyers

Yet, if you see posts about borrowing for a car on the credit forums within the site, you see the general response that £40k (or whatever) is simply too much.  Car finance can take the value of the car into account as security, but that does not affect the fundamental that the borrower needs to be able to repay the finance and that is harder if the loan is £10k bigger.

I am not sure that the "buy what you can afford" works exactly as you suggest as the person buying the new EV is unlikely to be starting from a "no car" position. 
Take my neighbour's son - current car A4 on PCP.  So that PCP will end and he'll want a new car on another PCP cycle.  IF he wants to switch to equivalent EV, the extra £150 monthly car payment will be covered by fuel savings but I am not convinced that finance would just allow an increase in amount borrowed by another £10k.  The "choose what you can get" does not really work as he has a car already.  He has a young family so probably will want a car of similar size and no doubt will want a "premium" brand again to communicate the message of success.  I don't think there is a direct equivalent Audi, but is the nearest car still available with the extra credit amount just awarded in his favour?

I won't run example credit check for myself, partly because I don't want to create unnecessary soft searches on my account.  More significantly, I would expect (hope) that any finance for any car would be a decline right now, not because of my credit record but because of affordability - I'm currently on NMW and my wife is on JSA.  If I was offered car finance, then that really seems to me like it would be irresponsible.

Though, the suspicion that the new car financing works entirely on list price could be good - taken to the extreme, I'd quite like a EQS.

Ibrahim5

I could buy a few but don't have the inclination at the moment.

[Deleted User]

Herzlos said:

I'm not aware of a single EV user that'd want to go back to combustion.

I am - a colleague of mine owned a new Nissan Leaf 2016-2019 and replaced it with an Vx Insignia ICE which he hated and shortly after got a BMW M-sport ICE of some sort and loved it.

However that doesn't mean anything just like your comment - only 1.2% of drivers own an EV and they are all early adopters and keen to use the new tech so it isn't really a representative view either even if the majority of EV owners wouldn't go back to ICE.

Like I said, I'm not anti-EV, but I'm looking for more from EV's before converting for good just like my colleague was. I am keen for the pro-EV people to be a bit more direct about the short comings so they can actually be solved before the other 98.8% of drivers get an EV rather than just selling the positives.

I get the positives, nobody needs to sell them to me, I just don't like the negatives being swept under the carpet because nothing will improve if we tell ourselves EV are perfect.

Same applies to ICE's, the last 3 decades since I passed my test has seen a dramatic improvement, and comparing current ICE's to those of the past shows how much safety, comfort and drivability have improved. EV's need to go through the same evolution but much faster due to the deadlines that have been set.

[Deleted User]

yessuz said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Herzlos said:

I think the target market is actually more likely to be company cars where the savings are even more drastic.

I'm also not sure a price difference of £150 or 27% to get an EV is that bad, assuming we're talking like-for-like spec. It's quite easy for someone to save the difference in fuel alone, but you're then still missing the rest of the picture around convenience, experience and so on before you even get to image. A green image is very desirable, predominantly for businesses.

For someone who can charge at home, it's much more convenient to just plug it in and never need to go to a petrol station. EV charging bays tend to be in better parts of the car park. They are quieter to drive, faster, have pre-heating, app control and so on that you don't get with an ICE car. 

I'm not aware of a single EV user that'd want to go back to combustion.

Though I think the better conversation would be around a more popular car, like the Corsa since I think it's been in the top 10 sales charges as long as I can remember.

I agree with all of that (though the company car part may be up against lease limits as I referenced higher up thread).  For the Corsa, the "from" difference for EV is still around £10k more than the ICE.

All the stuff about being able to benefit from the savings to offset (or more than offset) the extra payments is not where my query is.

If you would buy a £20k car but the EV is £30k, can you get the lending to cover the extra £10k?
Lenders for car loans are not doing a full affordability look in the same was as mortgage lenders.
There is not, so far as I am aware, the assessment of the extra £150 monthly versus the saving in fuel cost.

The £10k delta seems to be a near constant, so "would buy £30k Kodiaq" becomes "now want £40k Enyaq" and so on.  It is only when you get to the top of the market (S-Class vs EQS) that the £10k delta becomes insignificant. 
I truly don't know whether / how the finance is available for the "normal" new car buyer to borrow the extra £10k.  This is key as, without "normal" new car buyers going EV, "normal" used car buyers will simply never see the stock as used.

eh? You check your affordability and choose what is suitable for you. simple as that.
maybe try to check both financing options yourself and see if you can get 130 gbp a month more on the 10k more expensive vehicle?

I have a suspicion that new car financing works entirely on the list price. indeed it does not use "valuation" like in case of mortgages and their affordability checks most probably are more flexible in many cases. Because car financing in most cases is secured against the car itself. but since it is very liquid asset (other than house) there's extremely low risk for financing company to provide additional 10k loan on the car which cost 10k more as the list price, meaning that remaining value of the car at the end of the finance will be higher.

I just do not understand where your problem is.

p.s. I think there are more of second hand cars that once were the fleet or business cars. https://www.am-online.com/news/market-insight/2021/06/04/dealers-maximise-may-new-car-sales-find-73-865-private-buyers

I think you are kidding yourself if you think there is enough choice to just do what you suggest.

• 74% of people buy used cars.
• 416,000 used cars for sale on Autotrader.
• 86% of them are £30k or under - that is a pretty big budget for a car for most people.
• 0.6% of those cars are EV's.
  

So currently the majority (74%) of the population have literally no real choices when it comes to EV's even if they are willing to spend £30k on a car.

Do any of the EV owners here suggest spending more than £30k on one is good value?

Not everyone can get the finance options you talk about either, I for one despite earning a good wage have a trashed credit history that won't get me anything less than 19% APR on finance.

Herzlos

yessuz said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Herzlos said:

I think the target market is actually more likely to be company cars where the savings are even more drastic.

I'm also not sure a price difference of £150 or 27% to get an EV is that bad, assuming we're talking like-for-like spec. It's quite easy for someone to save the difference in fuel alone, but you're then still missing the rest of the picture around convenience, experience and so on before you even get to image. A green image is very desirable, predominantly for businesses.

For someone who can charge at home, it's much more convenient to just plug it in and never need to go to a petrol station. EV charging bays tend to be in better parts of the car park. They are quieter to drive, faster, have pre-heating, app control and so on that you don't get with an ICE car. 

I'm not aware of a single EV user that'd want to go back to combustion.

Though I think the better conversation would be around a more popular car, like the Corsa since I think it's been in the top 10 sales charges as long as I can remember.

I agree with all of that (though the company car part may be up against lease limits as I referenced higher up thread).  For the Corsa, the "from" difference for EV is still around £10k more than the ICE.

All the stuff about being able to benefit from the savings to offset (or more than offset) the extra payments is not where my query is.

If you would buy a £20k car but the EV is £30k, can you get the lending to cover the extra £10k?
Lenders for car loans are not doing a full affordability look in the same was as mortgage lenders.
There is not, so far as I am aware, the assessment of the extra £150 monthly versus the saving in fuel cost.

The £10k delta seems to be a near constant, so "would buy £30k Kodiaq" becomes "now want £40k Enyaq" and so on.  It is only when you get to the top of the market (S-Class vs EQS) that the £10k delta becomes insignificant. 
I truly don't know whether / how the finance is available for the "normal" new car buyer to borrow the extra £10k.  This is key as, without "normal" new car buyers going EV, "normal" used car buyers will simply never see the stock as used.

eh? You check your affordability and choose what is suitable for you. simple as that.
maybe try to check both financing options yourself and see if you can get 130 gbp a month more on the 10k more expensive vehicle?

I have a suspicion that new car financing works entirely on the list price. indeed it does not use "valuation" like in case of mortgages and their affordability checks most probably are more flexible in many cases. Because car financing in most cases is secured against the car itself. but since it is very liquid asset (other than house) there's extremely low risk for financing company to provide additional 10k loan on the car which cost 10k more as the list price, meaning that remaining value of the car at the end of the finance will be higher.

It depends on the finance; if it's a loan it's based on the purchase price and affordability of the payments. (you wouldn't be able to get approved with payments of nearly your salary). If it's tied to the car there's often a better rate because the car is reposessable.

If it's a PCP or lease, then it's based on the purchase price minus the residual value at the end of the contract. So in theory, a £30k car could be cheaper to lease than a £20k car*. The same may apply with a PCP though with the interest payments on the extra £10k may make it less likely.

Will a £30k EV be worth more than a £20k ICE in 3 years time? It almost certainly will be, and will almost certainly retain a higher percentage value because it'll be more desirable.

Like we've mentioned many times on here already, that £30k car could easily work out cheaper over the ownership period if the owner does enough miles or gets enough perks (BIK, CC, free parking/charging).  Assuming no special perks, and keeping the car for 10 years, you'd only need to save £1000/year to recoup the purchase price difference. You'll already save £165 on tax, another £100 on servicing, and ignoring reduced brake wear because it's too hard to calculate. Assuming you only save 10p/mile on usage, you'd only need to do 7350 miles to break even.

*Often you'll find that the lower spec models are more expensive to lease than higher spec, because the residuals are worse.

Herzlos

Deleted_User said:

yessuz said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Herzlos said:

I think the target market is actually more likely to be company cars where the savings are even more drastic.

I'm also not sure a price difference of £150 or 27% to get an EV is that bad, assuming we're talking like-for-like spec. It's quite easy for someone to save the difference in fuel alone, but you're then still missing the rest of the picture around convenience, experience and so on before you even get to image. A green image is very desirable, predominantly for businesses.

For someone who can charge at home, it's much more convenient to just plug it in and never need to go to a petrol station. EV charging bays tend to be in better parts of the car park. They are quieter to drive, faster, have pre-heating, app control and so on that you don't get with an ICE car. 

I'm not aware of a single EV user that'd want to go back to combustion.

Though I think the better conversation would be around a more popular car, like the Corsa since I think it's been in the top 10 sales charges as long as I can remember.

I agree with all of that (though the company car part may be up against lease limits as I referenced higher up thread).  For the Corsa, the "from" difference for EV is still around £10k more than the ICE.

All the stuff about being able to benefit from the savings to offset (or more than offset) the extra payments is not where my query is.

If you would buy a £20k car but the EV is £30k, can you get the lending to cover the extra £10k?
Lenders for car loans are not doing a full affordability look in the same was as mortgage lenders.
There is not, so far as I am aware, the assessment of the extra £150 monthly versus the saving in fuel cost.

The £10k delta seems to be a near constant, so "would buy £30k Kodiaq" becomes "now want £40k Enyaq" and so on.  It is only when you get to the top of the market (S-Class vs EQS) that the £10k delta becomes insignificant. 
I truly don't know whether / how the finance is available for the "normal" new car buyer to borrow the extra £10k.  This is key as, without "normal" new car buyers going EV, "normal" used car buyers will simply never see the stock as used.

eh? You check your affordability and choose what is suitable for you. simple as that.
maybe try to check both financing options yourself and see if you can get 130 gbp a month more on the 10k more expensive vehicle?

I have a suspicion that new car financing works entirely on the list price. indeed it does not use "valuation" like in case of mortgages and their affordability checks most probably are more flexible in many cases. Because car financing in most cases is secured against the car itself. but since it is very liquid asset (other than house) there's extremely low risk for financing company to provide additional 10k loan on the car which cost 10k more as the list price, meaning that remaining value of the car at the end of the finance will be higher.

I just do not understand where your problem is.

p.s. I think there are more of second hand cars that once were the fleet or business cars. https://www.am-online.com/news/market-insight/2021/06/04/dealers-maximise-may-new-car-sales-find-73-865-private-buyers

I think you are kidding yourself if you think there is enough choice to just do what you suggest.

• 74% of people buy used cars.
• 416,000 used cars for sale on Autotrader.
• 86% of them are £30k or under - that is a pretty big budget for a car for most people.
• 0.6% of those cars are EV's.
  

So currently the majority (74%) of the population have literally no real choices when it comes to EV's even if they are willing to spend £30k on a car.

Do any of the EV owners here suggest spending more than £30k on one is good value?

Not everyone can get the finance options you talk about either, I for one despite earning a good wage have a trashed credit history that won't get me anything less than 19% APR on finance.

Absolutely, there is a real lack of (a) lower end electric cars - though some are available new for under £30k (Like the MG ZS and 5) - (b) used EVs, which is a kind of natural consequence of them not being on the market for long and (c) Brexit and Covid completely hindering production and supply.

Give it another ~3 years for the current fleet of EV's to hit the 2nd hand market and you'll see much more choice. Assuming residuals of about 50%, that means you'll see MG5 EV's for about £12.5k, Citroen Berlingos and Golf GTE's for about £16k, and so on.

Of course, £30k is still a pretty high figure. I've never spent close to that on a car (I've maxed out at about £15k), so it may be more like 5 or 6 years before we see a good choice of EV's for under about £10k.

I believe that various brands are looking at introducing EV variants of the lower end stuff over the next few years. Dacia are planning to (though I'm not sure if they'll be BEV or just PHEV).

Grumpy_chap

Herzlos said:

Will a £30k EV be worth more than a £20k ICE in 3 years time? It almost certainly will be, and will almost certainly retain a higher percentage value because it'll be more desirable.

This is absolutely true at the moment.  It may not hold for that long (obviously, any comment on the future is speculation).  My reasons for thinking it may not hold:

1. Price of new EV's will fall.  Many people currently have new cars at around the £35k mark (SUV / compact exec) on PCP at around £400 monthly.  EV equivalent is current £10k premium and £150 extra monthly.  That premium has to fall out.
2. Price of new ICE's will fall (probably even faster) as manufacturers dump the residual stocks of whatever they have at rock-bottom prices.  In 2025, it will be tempting for quite a large number of buyers to go for a run-out ICE.  Maybe it will be a bit later than 2025, but it will happen at some time.
3. Overall availability of used EV's will start to increase.
4. Overall availability of new cars will increase so that offers will be more readily available - depressing used prices accordingly.

(The alternative to 3 & 4 is that we remain in crisis for all that period and I am sure we all certainly hope that is not the case.)