The big fat Electric Vehicle bashing thread.

Ibrahim5

I have never waited anything like an hour for a petrol pump. The French all go on holiday on the same day. It won't work with electric vehicles. Solutions like not all going on holiday at the same time will have to be found. Can't keep pretending that they are the same. Electric cars have advantages and disadvantages.

Ibrahim5

I know not everyone is interested in France but they all go on holiday at the same time. Often hundreds of miles of congestion on the motorways. Delays of hours. Paris to St Tropez is 600 miles so they would all have to find chargers.  Would have to install thousands of chargers for a couple of days a year.

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

I don't get many of the replies on this thread. When EV'ers say that charging isn't as bad as some suggest, the replies seem to falsely say  - "EV'ers are claiming it's perfect".

When Petrix says access to cheap (or free) charging, the response claims he's stated free.

Why is help and information from EV'ers constantly being misrepresented?

Is the situation perfect, of course not, it's still early days, a whole new system needs to be developed and rolled out, but that's just an issue of time, as with anything fundamentally different to what went before.

Of course we should consider the negatives, but focusing on them entirely, whilst omitting the positives, makes no sense to me, and then misrepresenting any positive responses, or actual solutions and developments, makes no sense.

I'm not anti-EV, very far from it.

I apologise if I mis-represented what was said about low-cost electricity.  I've accepted in several posts that running an EV will be cheaper than running an ICE.  The big difference in that is fuel / energy cost, though that largely requires home charging as the cost gets very close if using public charging.

As a genuine question, can the EV-tariffs still be joined by new customers?

There was discussion further upthread about the proportion that could have off-street parking plus home charging point.  It was not clear it was that high a proportion.  For those that do not have off-street parking but do have a front garden that could be converted, there is a cost to do that.  From my own experience, that cost is near to £10k, but obviously a one-off cost to convert from ICE to EV, and many choose to do a driveway whether having ICE or EV.  In an area like mine, the aggressively anti-car Local Authority makes it very hard to install a driveway and dropped kerb and could well be detrimental to the change from ICE to EV.

Herzlos said:

Grumpy_chap said:

My wife and I were out shopping this afternoon and Volvo had a stand in the shopping centre showing off their cars - they had two cars on display - an XC40 and a C40, both were all electric.

This type of car is slap bang in the territory for the "aspirational family" and I am not convinced that there are that many "aspirational families" that can finance in the range of £60k or £750 per month for a car acquisition.  Even the "well off" "aspirational family" with a "good" income level also has mortgage / rent, school trips, and all the other commitments to be met as well.  The savings in energy cost for the car become irrelevant if it is simply not possible to get into the car in the first place.

Volvos have always been expensive. You can't afford one, and I can't afford one. But does that make it a problem?

Lots of people (not me, admittedly) can easily afford to pay £750/month for a car, that's why they still sell.

As mentioned, if you're trying to make a point about the high up front cost of entry to the EV market, why are you looking at the super expensive luxury brands and not the entry level stuff on the market? The MG5 EV can be had for £25k which is going to be under £300/month. You can get electric variants of all sorts of mundane vehicles now: Corsa, Golf, Mini, etc.

I think my comments on this were taken out-of-context, or I did not explain myself particularly well.  

It is made harder by comments saying the extra finance is easy to have and resorting to a series of explanation marks to describe those that cannot afford.  Simply dismissing the extra finance as irrelevant.

I did not compare Volvo for any reason other than the fact that Volvo had a promotional spot in the shopping centre so it was a comment and observation on my day.

It is not overly important whether you or I can afford an XC40 (or would choose to). 

Some people can afford an XC40 - as an ICE it's from £36k or £540 monthly. 
I do think this is the type of car the "aspirational family" would buy - I used a household income £60k. 
Again, that is not overly important as there are some (a lot) of people that afford the cars like the XC40 - quite likely on monthly payments.

What is relevant is £10k uplift (extra £130 monthly) for the same car but as an EV instead of ICE. 
Those that have sufficient disposable income to "easily" afford the extra monthly payment will be double winners as they can get the same type of car they would anyway and will very likely be better off overall when all the running costs (petrol / electricity) are taken into account.
My question was really around the "aspirational family" with a "good" income (which seems to be the target market for this type of car).  It is not clear to me that that "aspirational family" will be able to get an extra £10k of finance in the first place and that then prevents them from gaining the running cost efficiencies.

It does not seem to me that the way to convert people from ICE to EV is to expect an "aspirational family" (or whatever customer) that would have an XC40 or similar car to switch to a more budget / smaller car to go EV.

Herzlos

I think the target market is actually more likely to be company cars where the savings are even more drastic.

I'm also not sure a price difference of £150 or 27% to get an EV is that bad, assuming we're talking like-for-like spec. It's quite easy for someone to save the difference in fuel alone, but you're then still missing the rest of the picture around convenience, experience and so on before you even get to image. A green image is very desirable, predominantly for businesses.

For someone who can charge at home, it's much more convenient to just plug it in and never need to go to a petrol station. EV charging bays tend to be in better parts of the car park. They are quieter to drive, faster, have pre-heating, app control and so on that you don't get with an ICE car. 

I'm not aware of a single EV user that'd want to go back to combustion.

Though I think the better conversation would be around a more popular car, like the Corsa since I think it's been in the top 10 sales charges as long as I can remember.

yessuz

Grumpy_chap said:

.

As a genuine question, can the EV-tariffs still be joined by new customers?

Short answer - yes, of course.

I think my comments on this were taken out-of-context, or I did not explain myself particularly well.  

It is made harder by comments saying the extra finance is easy to have and resorting to a series of explanation marks to describe those that cannot afford.  Simply dismissing the extra finance as irrelevant.

I did not compare Volvo for any reason other than the fact that Volvo had a promotional spot in the shopping centre so it was a comment and observation on my day.

It is not overly important whether you or I can afford an XC40 (or would choose to). 

Some people can afford an XC40 - as an ICE it's from £36k or £540 monthly. 
I do think this is the type of car the "aspirational family" would buy - I used a household income £60k. 
Again, that is not overly important as there are some (a lot) of people that afford the cars like the XC40 - quite likely on monthly payments.

What is relevant is £10k uplift (extra £130 monthly) for the same car but as an EV instead of ICE. 
Those that have sufficient disposable income to "easily" afford the extra monthly payment will be double winners as they can get the same type of car they would anyway and will very likely be better off overall when all the running costs (petrol / electricity) are taken into account.
My question was really around the "aspirational family" with a "good" income (which seems to be the target market for this type of car).  It is not clear to me that that "aspirational family" will be able to get an extra £10k of finance in the first place and that then prevents them from gaining the running cost efficiencies.

It does not seem to me that the way to convert people from ICE to EV is to expect an "aspirational family" (or whatever customer) that would have an XC40 or similar car to switch to a more budget / smaller car to go EV.

So here's few bits. Firstly, Volvo always was and is a luxury brand. If you are looking at luxury brand, then you should take into account your situation, obviously. But again, there are alternatives. The actual logic would be, while choosing a new car, to really measure your affordability. Do you think that your "aspirational family" would not have additional 130 GBP a month for monthly payment but will have absolutely no issues spending additional 200 GBP on top monthly on fuel?  Or is it that each and every person should make a well calculated decision before committing, taking into account not only the single figure as monthly payment, but the running costs as well?

I think car finance providers can be much more flexible with various payment and term options. you would need to check, as well as they are quite flexible on circumstances and affordability. For me it's awkward to raise the question about 130 GBP a month less as being at the top of the affordability, but then spend 200 GBP more every month. It's false economy. Moreover, if that's your top limit, then you should look at cheaper alternatives.

I would be in doubt that XC40 target market is family making 60k a year. maybe their target is family with combined income of 70k? Maybe 60k a year target market is Hyundai?
after all, 60k a year per 2 working adults is ~4k a month net. mortgage/rent being about 750 a month probably? I, myself, would probably not commit on the new car with such income level and would look at couple of years old second hand one for half the price of new.

Herzlos

Ibrahim5 said:

I know not everyone is interested in France but they all go on holiday at the same time. Often hundreds of miles of congestion on the motorways. Delays of hours. Paris to St Tropez is 600 miles so they would all have to find chargers.  Would have to install thousands of chargers for a couple of days a year.

The French quite like their leisurely lunch breaks though, don't they?

Also, an EV is probably going to do a lot better in congested motorway traffic than an ICE would.

Grumpy_chap

Herzlos said:

I think the target market is actually more likely to be company cars where the savings are even more drastic.

I'm also not sure a price difference of £150 or 27% to get an EV is that bad, assuming we're talking like-for-like spec. It's quite easy for someone to save the difference in fuel alone, but you're then still missing the rest of the picture around convenience, experience and so on before you even get to image. A green image is very desirable, predominantly for businesses.

For someone who can charge at home, it's much more convenient to just plug it in and never need to go to a petrol station. EV charging bays tend to be in better parts of the car park. They are quieter to drive, faster, have pre-heating, app control and so on that you don't get with an ICE car. 

I'm not aware of a single EV user that'd want to go back to combustion.

Though I think the better conversation would be around a more popular car, like the Corsa since I think it's been in the top 10 sales charges as long as I can remember.

I agree with all of that (though the company car part may be up against lease limits as I referenced higher up thread).  For the Corsa, the "from" difference for EV is still around £10k more than the ICE.

All the stuff about being able to benefit from the savings to offset (or more than offset) the extra payments is not where my query is.

If you would buy a £20k car but the EV is £30k, can you get the lending to cover the extra £10k?
Lenders for car loans are not doing a full affordability look in the same was as mortgage lenders.
There is not, so far as I am aware, the assessment of the extra £150 monthly versus the saving in fuel cost.

The £10k delta seems to be a near constant, so "would buy £30k Kodiaq" becomes "now want £40k Enyaq" and so on.  It is only when you get to the top of the market (S-Class vs EQS) that the £10k delta becomes insignificant. 
I truly don't know whether / how the finance is available for the "normal" new car buyer to borrow the extra £10k.  This is key as, without "normal" new car buyers going EV, "normal" used car buyers will simply never see the stock as used.

yessuz

Grumpy_chap said:

Herzlos said:

I think the target market is actually more likely to be company cars where the savings are even more drastic.

I'm also not sure a price difference of £150 or 27% to get an EV is that bad, assuming we're talking like-for-like spec. It's quite easy for someone to save the difference in fuel alone, but you're then still missing the rest of the picture around convenience, experience and so on before you even get to image. A green image is very desirable, predominantly for businesses.

For someone who can charge at home, it's much more convenient to just plug it in and never need to go to a petrol station. EV charging bays tend to be in better parts of the car park. They are quieter to drive, faster, have pre-heating, app control and so on that you don't get with an ICE car. 

I'm not aware of a single EV user that'd want to go back to combustion.

Though I think the better conversation would be around a more popular car, like the Corsa since I think it's been in the top 10 sales charges as long as I can remember.

I agree with all of that (though the company car part may be up against lease limits as I referenced higher up thread).  For the Corsa, the "from" difference for EV is still around £10k more than the ICE.

All the stuff about being able to benefit from the savings to offset (or more than offset) the extra payments is not where my query is.

If you would buy a £20k car but the EV is £30k, can you get the lending to cover the extra £10k?
Lenders for car loans are not doing a full affordability look in the same was as mortgage lenders.
There is not, so far as I am aware, the assessment of the extra £150 monthly versus the saving in fuel cost.

The £10k delta seems to be a near constant, so "would buy £30k Kodiaq" becomes "now want £40k Enyaq" and so on.  It is only when you get to the top of the market (S-Class vs EQS) that the £10k delta becomes insignificant. 
I truly don't know whether / how the finance is available for the "normal" new car buyer to borrow the extra £10k.  This is key as, without "normal" new car buyers going EV, "normal" used car buyers will simply never see the stock as used.

eh? You check your affordability and choose what is suitable for you. simple as that.
maybe try to check both financing options yourself and see if you can get 130 gbp a month more on the 10k more expensive vehicle?

I have a suspicion that new car financing works entirely on the list price. indeed it does not use "valuation" like in case of mortgages and their affordability checks most probably are more flexible in many cases. Because car financing in most cases is secured against the car itself. but since it is very liquid asset (other than house) there's extremely low risk for financing company to provide additional 10k loan on the car which cost 10k more as the list price, meaning that remaining value of the car at the end of the finance will be higher.

I just do not understand where your problem is.

p.s. I think there are more of second hand cars that once were the fleet or business cars. https://www.am-online.com/news/market-insight/2021/06/04/dealers-maximise-may-new-car-sales-find-73-865-private-buyers

Martyn1981

Herzlos said:

Martyn1981 said:

Just to say, because I always like to look for the positives. On previous EV threads going back 5yrs or so, those with little to no interest in getting nor learning about BEV's would claim they are no good till they can drive 200 miles on a motorway, at speed with charging times of 30mins. Then it became 300 miles, then 400, now it seems to be 480 miles.

Moving the goalposts is actually progress, and for the 480 mile edge cases, there's the expensive (edge case(?)) Lucid Air with a range of over 500 miles* ...... many times in excess of my bladder range.

*520 mile range high performance model costs about $140k, or around $170k for about 1,100bhp. Whilst the base models with 'only' 400 miles of range start at about $70k. Not yet released in the UK, but apparently it is planned.

Good point. Given that ICE development has essentially stopped, I wonder if they'll keep shifting goalposts beyond a point where EV's have a longer range than ICE - or will they keep going on about charging times and how they've got a £200 ICE car that somehow gets 80mpg and they'd never need electric?

(I have to admit; it's amusing to watch the goal post shifting to an extent, but I'm not quite right in the head).

Yes I love it too, and openly admit to being very odd. I think I (we) am in a very lucky position where I get to watch an energy revolution, and a transport revolution, in my lifetime, and at turbo speed, v's previous revolutions.

Apologies to all for the digression, but a wonderful bit of goalpost repositioning happened just a week or so ago. Anyone who has followed RE deployment for 10yrs or so, will remember the common claims that 'the grid won't be able to cope with more than 20% RE", which rapidly became 30%, 40%, 50% ..... well California recently reached 100% RE supply, in fact they were exporting some excess, so 100%+ RE, for the first time. This was achieved over a 15min reporting period.

Did that end the negatives .................. of course not, the immediate response in the comments was 'just 15 mins?" 

I love this stuff, it's self mocking in a way that I could never hope to achieve on my best sarcastic day. Like Trump playing 'Fortunate Son' (by CCR) (one of the greatest songs ever, IMO, near perfect) at all of his rallies - seriously look up the lyrics, it's mind blowing.

Back to BEV's, check out this video ad by the Australien Gov, sometimes satire is best.

Ibrahim5

Herzlos said:

Ibrahim5 said:

I know not everyone is interested in France but they all go on holiday at the same time. Often hundreds of miles of congestion on the motorways. Delays of hours. Paris to St Tropez is 600 miles so they would all have to find chargers.  Would have to install thousands of chargers for a couple of days a year.

The French quite like their leisurely lunch breaks though, don't they?

Also, an EV is probably going to do a lot better in congested motorway traffic than an ICE would.

The aires are certainly full at lunchtime but you would have to have so many charging points. Only solution I can see is to stagger the holidays somehow.