Tiling Job - Tiles not straight

Jeepers_Creepers

Section62 said:

The "line of sight as you enter the room" is the row of uncut tiles which the tiler has laid perpendicular to the threshold. Such that they are 'straight' as you look at them from the doorway.

People who are still criticising that decision (if it was the tiler's decision) as a "crap job" have apparently still not clocked what the actual problem is..... after however many pages of posts discussing it.

Can you clarify whether you are suggesting that the 'line of sight as you enter the room' was possibly the system used by this tiler, and - if it was - it would have been a reasonable and acceptable alternative layout decision?

Ie. the tiler did what he did because a 5.5cm grout-line deviation over a 3-4m length kitchen would have been noticeable by someone sauntering down the hallway into the room? And this took precedence over the same 5.5cm deviation being noticed against plinths and walls once in the room?

The tiler really thought it through, compared the options, and decided on the 'losayetr' approach over the alternatives? And his chosen approach has equal validity 'cos he 'decided' on it, and he's a pro and I ain't? It is equally 'correct'?

Section62

Doozergirl said:

I have 120 square metres of Amtico laid across my ground floor and it all starts from the front door, because that is the longest sight line.  10 metres straight through to the back door.  Even the two solitary trees I've planted in the back garden are lined up with it. There will be a focal point slap bang in the middle at the back too.    

I trust you used a laser to do the lining up of the trees.

Doozergirl said:

Now that would have been a good idea. The OP wouldn't have even needed to turn up 🙄

And could now show both the before and after pictures to the tiler, judge, (or whoever), and say "This is what I asked for, this is what I got".

Jeepers_Creepers

DB1904 said:

Again that should have been discussed because it has been laid from the threshold with the discrepancy on the rear wall.

Yes, it should have been discussed.

But I fear we are thinking of two different folk when it comes to considering who should have initiated this discussion?

I have a theory as to why the tiler did not discuss this beforehand - it didn't cross his mind until it was too late that he had made a fundamental error.

NSG666

Fortunately the tiles were square rather than rectangular otherwise we'd still be debating whether they should have been laid portrait or landscape, in columns, brick or something in-between then this thread would really have dragged on.

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Can you clarify whether you are suggesting that the 'line of sight as you enter the room' was possibly the system used by this tiler, and - if it was - it would have been a reasonable alternative layout decision?

If 'line of sight as you enter the room' means what I think it means, then yes, that is a plausible reason and a reasonable alternative. But we don't know that was the reason.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Ie. the tiler did what he did because a 5.5cm grout-line deviation over a 3-4m length kitchen would have been noticeable by someone sauntering down the hallway into the room? And this took precedence over the same 5.5cm deviation being noticed against plinths and walls once in the room?

We don't know that figure, which is one of the reasons why much of the 'discussion' in this thread is pretty pointless.  But I think it is 4.7m.

That equates to a deviation of about 11.7mm per metre run. Clever adjustment of the plinth could probably reduce that to ~5mm/m run.

55mm deviation in 4.7m equates to an angle of 0.67 degrees (if my maths is right).  Much less than the 'couple of degrees' it was previously speculated the tiles need to be rotated by (IIRC).

Jeepers_Creepers said:

The tiler really thought it through, compared the options, and decided on the 'losayetr' approach? And his approach has equal validity? Is equally 'correct' (sorry about messing up the semantics, but i think you are used to it).

To answer that, and seeing as how I've answered your questions, can you take a copy of Jack's sketch and edit it to carefully place a coloured dot in the position you think someone "once in the room" could be in where they would have a 'straight' and clear view along that plinth line. That is, where they would need to be such that the plinth line is 'straight' in front of them. Ta.

Jeepers_Creepers

Doozergirl said:

I have 120 square metres of Amtico laid across my ground floor and it all starts from the front door, because that is the longest sight line.  10 metres straight through to the back door.  Even the two solitary trees I've planted in the back garden are lined up with it. There will be a focal point slap bang in the middle at the back too.    

Tell us, Doozer, that your Amtico is laid so exactly dependent on the los from the front door that it doesn't matter that it's 5cm out of parallel with your hallway walls

Jeepers_Creepers

Section62 said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

S62, based on the information we have been given, which layout do you consider to be better? More correct. The one you'd wish to have been left with?

The original tiler's or the subsequent tiler's?

And by roughly what factor.

Arguments could be made for either.  The choice is a personal one, and my view isn't relevant.

There are only two that actually count - Jack (and his wife together), and the tiler's.  And a third - the judge - if it goes that far.


Given the BiB question, I think it is also worth pointing out (I'd lost the will to do so yesterday) that we now know that the current tiler wasn't the one who took the old tiles up.  Therefore he wasn't in a position to know that was how it was done previously, or to suspect that was what Jack wanted put back.

He had a 'blank canvas' to work with.

So the BiB question is moot - unless Jack showed the tiler pictures of the previous job and said 'please do it like this'.

I don't think it's moot at all. But you appear to be suggesting that the two layouts have equal validity; "It's a personal choice"?

And - correct me if I'm wrong - I don't think you've suggested that the tiler should have discussed these two 'equally-valid' options with his customer beforehand?

And yet I have filled a large portion of a reply with the numerous quotes from this thread that appear to imply that Jack should have made himself involved, before and during the work, and - if he didn't - to not be then surprised if it came back to bite him. 

Is that a fair summation?

Jeepers_Creepers

Section62 said:

We don't know that figure, which is one of the reasons why much of the 'discussion' in this thread is pretty pointless.  But I think it is 4.7m.

That equates to a deviation of about 11.7mm per metre run. Clever adjustment of the plinth could probably reduce that to ~5mm/m run.

55mm deviation in 4.7m equates to an angle of 0.67 degrees (if my maths is right).  Much less than the 'couple of degrees' it was previously speculated the tiles need to be rotated by (IIRC).

I really don't think this discussion is pointless at all, since much of it appears to suggest - as I've said ad infinitum - some responsibility or culpability on the customer if the pro makes a mistake.

That is surely worthy of discussion in its own right?

The question is - did the pro make a mistake?

Blimey, calculations! Approaching or standing in a doorway, looking into a room, how aware would a human be of a 12mm line deviation per metre run lying before them? Would they 'clock' it? Would they even make it out if it were pointed out to them?

I'm looking at my floorboards, and I'm going to say 'no'. Categorically, 100%, 'no'. Why? Because when I look at the floorboards in this 5m room, what I notice as they head towards the far wall is that every single T&G line is 'straight' in themselves (the boards aren't sideways bowed), but there is nothing, nothing, to indicate whether they are all heading off slightly to the side at a 'squint', or are running at a perfect right angle to the end wall.  

One or two T&G grooves lie pretty much dead in line in front of me, but all the rest are seemingly at different angles as they pass increasingly to the sides - they all appear to taper in towards the middle - perspective. They are all 'different' - if they all headed sideways at 10o, I wouldn't notice. If I took one 6" step to the side, I'd be looking at a different couple of T&G grooves in front of me, but the whole effect would be the same - they are all obviously straight lines in themselves, but there's nothing to suggest whether they are all heading straight to the end wall, or whether they have deviated by a sideways angle of a few degrees. (And you have calculated Jack's to be less than 1o)

The EXCEPTION to this, of course, are the ones that run immediately adjacent to the walls and skirting boards; any significant deviation here would immediately be obvious.

Try it.

This is not a 'personal choice'. The tiler made a mistake. Even if he still truly believes he made a clever choice by considering los coming in to the room, he didn't. If he carries on doing this, he's a twit.

DB1904

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Section62 said:

We don't know that figure, which is one of the reasons why much of the 'discussion' in this thread is pretty pointless.  But I think it is 4.7m.

That equates to a deviation of about 11.7mm per metre run. Clever adjustment of the plinth could probably reduce that to ~5mm/m run.

55mm deviation in 4.7m equates to an angle of 0.67 degrees (if my maths is right).  Much less than the 'couple of degrees' it was previously speculated the tiles need to be rotated by (IIRC).

I really don't think this discussion is pointless at all, since much of it appears to suggest - as I've said ad infinitum - some responsibility or culpability on the customer if the pro makes a mistake.

That is surely worthy of discussion in its own right?

Blimey, calculations! Approaching or standing in a doorway, looking into a room, how aware would a mobile human be of a 12mm line deviation per metre run? Would they 'clock' it? Would they even make it out if it were pointed out to them?

I'm looking at my floorboards, and I'm going to say 'no'. Categorically, 100%, 'no'. Why? Because what I notice is that every single T&G line is at a different angle to my eyeballs. I can look at them ALL, and not make out if they are at an angle, or a squint as they run towards the far end wall. Except, of course, the ones adjacent to the walls and skirting boards; any deviation there would be immediately obvious.

This is not a 'personal choice'. The tiler made a mistake. Even if he still truly believes he didn't, even if he has convinced himself he made the right choice, he didn't. If he carries on doing this, he's a twit.

Which is just your opinion and if it goes to court they'll look at the evidence. Sixteen pages in and you've yet to evidence anything but your opinion.

Doozergirl

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Doozergirl said:

I have 120 square metres of Amtico laid across my ground floor and it all starts from the front door, because that is the longest sight line.  10 metres straight through to the back door.  Even the two solitary trees I've planted in the back garden are lined up with it. There will be a focal point slap bang in the middle at the back too.    

Tell us, Doozer, that your Amtico is laid so exactly dependent on the los from the front door that it doesn't matter that it's 5cm out of parallel with your hallway walls

Jeepers, there is always going to be something slightly out of line.  But yes, I think a straight line of perspective is possibly the most important element because it is the line that is perceived most commonly.  My guests aren't staring at the line of the tiles against walls but they may well notice if the tiles ran at a different angle to the path to the line from the front door  through the house.  

This is the most ridiculous conversation.  You're arguing that there is only one way to do it correctly, but there isn't.  My husband and I regularly disagree on site because we're individuals with individual ideas.  So many finishes would be slightly or really very different in our own house, designed from scratch, if the other had taken control of an element instead of the other.  Even the border on the Amtico.  I knew what I wanted.  If I didn't communicate it, it could have been laid in infinite ways, or not at all.  

This didn't need to happen.  No tiler is expected to be psychic.  It could have been stopped before or during the process.  

I've been to arbitration in the past with a client and the surveyor completely exonerated us.  Part of that was a complaint for items that they had not been specific about.  One thing was using two pieces of lead instead a continuous run on a valley in the roof.  The client was left out of pocket for the arbitration, for which we had insurance for our fees, and was left with a nearly, but not quite finished project, which we were allowed to walk away from.    It couldn't have happened to a nicer man.  

Surveyors do and will also look at what is reasonable within a project from start to finish.