Tiling Job - Tiles not straight

Jeepers_Creepers

Section62 said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

(I started reading this thread thinking that Jack was a bit OCD - a fusspot. When he posted the dimensions, photos and sketch, I did a 180o U-turn. It was based on the evidence, and not because I may be an empath.)

I noticed that, which is why I implored you to think more carefully.  The problem was the evidence you were using (Jack's sketch) is misleading. [Not a criticism of Jack]

The sketch is distorted in scale and orientation - nothing wrong with that if you are trying to convey a point - but it doesn't include vital bits of information which would make it 'evidence'.  You cannot draw the conclusions you have done from that sketch, it simply isn't possible.

Jack's new sketches are also misleading and still contain some of the same fundamental mistakes. [Again, not a criticism of Jack].  Jack is not an engineer or surveyor, or draughtsman, so cannot be expected to produce accurate scaled drawings.

But it does mean that your 180o was (and still is) based on duff evidence. [not making a 'point', but trying to explain where you have gone wrong]

Jeepers_Creepers said:

But...but...but... It's not because I'm an empath (thanks :-) ), but because I can only conclude the tiler made a mistake. There was a very obvious way - as far as I can see - to lay these tiles, and for some reason he didn't go for this. It was a schoolboy error.

Take another look at stuart45's greenhouse picture.  You could conclude that stuart45 made a mistake. A 'schoolboy error'.

If I understood stuart45's point correctly, he was saying there's two sides to a story. If you don't have the other side then it is easy to draw the wrong conclusion.

If this thread had been about stuart45's greenhouse "error" I'd have been doing exactly the same thing as I have been - pointing out that the blockwork was all laid level, the joints were even, the pointing neatly done, and overall looking like a very good job.  I'd be saying that we need to think about the inconsistency between everything looking good, apart from one issue, and the theory stuart45 had made a "schoolboy error". It doesn't make sense.  It fails the 'sanity' test.  We need stuart45's side of the story.

Exactly the same applies to this tiling.  The only difference is that unlike stuart45, the tiler isn't on this forum to explain why he made the decision he did.  If he was, I think there's a very good chance you'd agree with him.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Did the tiler really use his best judgement, or did the tiler make a mistake with significant consequences. I can only conclude it's the latter. I might, of course, be wrong here, but nothing else makes sense.

The tiles have apparently been aligned so they are perpendicular to the threshold of the hallway door.  In the circumstances it makes perfect sense, even if it doesn't match the expectations of the client (and majority? on here).

If the tiles had been laid aligned to the units then other clients might complain that when standing in the doorway there was a 'squint' on them.  We are dealing with personal preferences and perceptions here, not black and white facts.  There cannot be a single 'correct' opinion.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Because that's the other issue on this thread - Jack has been tackled for not pointing out how he wanted the tiles laid out in advance (as if he should have known there would be an issue) wheras no-one (I don't think) has suggested that the pro should have communicated with Jack.

I find this a bit weird.

Jack hasn't "been tackled".

It has been pointed out that if the client doesn't specify something then they are leaving it up to the professional to make the decision using their experience and judgement.

This matters - it isn't argument for the sake of having an argument - because if Jack goes 'legal' the court will decide liability based on whether or not the tiler did a professional job (in the round), rather than whether or not the tiler met the client's alignment specification.

Leaving something up to a professional's judgement is an entirely legitimate approach - but there are consequences of doing so.

One of which is having limited scope for complaint if they don't do what you thought they would.

"But it does mean that your 180o was (and still is) based on duff evidence. [not making a 'point', but trying to explain where you have gone wrong]". Yes, absolutely. My opinion is based on the evidence provided; if that is significantly not as presented, then clearly I could/would be totally wrong. A 5.5cm deviation down the LH side which, if corrected, would also have largely sorted out 2 other sides as well, seems pretty solid, tho'. But, if that's wrong, so am I.

"Leaving something up to a professional's judgement is an entirely legitimate approach - but there are consequences of doing so." Do the consequences include living with a professional's mistake - if mistake it was?

"Jack hasn't "been tackled""

Maybe take it as a bit of a lesson - tradespeople need to be managed. If you leave them to it without making your expectations clear, you're setting yourself up for problems.

but why don't people check in on at least part of a job so that mistakes can be called out when they're fresh and the job isn't finished!

If you don't want to pay someone to supervise and project manage it's fine, but you have to do all of that yourself and the buck does stop at you

A key function of supervision is to have (at least) a second person to (ideally) catch the mistakes of the first - at a time where rectification is possible with minimum cost/waste/delay. Save money/effort on supervision, pay for it with avoidable errors and mistakes

If you put at least two sets of eyes on it, it's unlikely to go wrong in the first place. 

So we're agreed.  It's a good idea to pop in and check that everything is going okay a few hours into the job to save any later heartache.

An occasional look-in when critical stuff is happening is often all it takes.

which is why stuart45 and Doozergirl's comments about communications and supervision are spot on, especially when you are letting a stranger loose on your home and hundreds of pounds worth of building materials.

I'm completely with Doozergirl that it is better to deal with stuff before it becomes a problem, rather than deal with the consequences after.

It is also important and relevant that you explained to the tiler beforehand about the table and fridge with an awareness of how these will impact on the visibility of differences in the bay window area and the rear wall.  The bay window area is clearly the least 'correct'.  Did you explicitly tell him that you wanted any differences to be in that area?

I'm still saying though that if you don't have a project manager, you should be checking that what is happening is exactly what you want, particularly because what you have isn't so different

Totally agree and if it was critical to the OP that the tiles were parallel to the left hand side units as you enter the kitchen this should have been communicated to the tiles before work started

All of the above seems to place a responsibility on the layman-customer to quality-control. And also seem to assume, as in Jack's case, that they should have some pre-knowledge of potential issues like out of square rooms, so should arm this tiler with this info, when the tiler should obviously be working this out for themselves. And should have the visual acumen to detect an error when checking up on the tiler - what should Jack have done, step over the kneeling tiler with a tape measure in his hand?  All this, even tho' the identical tiling that was ripped up had been laid very acceptably indeed. Because it was done correctly.

DB1904

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Section62 said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

(I started reading this thread thinking that Jack was a bit OCD - a fusspot. When he posted the dimensions, photos and sketch, I did a 180o U-turn. It was based on the evidence, and not because I may be an empath.)

I noticed that, which is why I implored you to think more carefully.  The problem was the evidence you were using (Jack's sketch) is misleading. [Not a criticism of Jack]

The sketch is distorted in scale and orientation - nothing wrong with that if you are trying to convey a point - but it doesn't include vital bits of information which would make it 'evidence'.  You cannot draw the conclusions you have done from that sketch, it simply isn't possible.

Jack's new sketches are also misleading and still contain some of the same fundamental mistakes. [Again, not a criticism of Jack].  Jack is not an engineer or surveyor, or draughtsman, so cannot be expected to produce accurate scaled drawings.

But it does mean that your 180o was (and still is) based on duff evidence. [not making a 'point', but trying to explain where you have gone wrong]

Jeepers_Creepers said:

But...but...but... It's not because I'm an empath (thanks :-) ), but because I can only conclude the tiler made a mistake. There was a very obvious way - as far as I can see - to lay these tiles, and for some reason he didn't go for this. It was a schoolboy error.

Take another look at stuart45's greenhouse picture.  You could conclude that stuart45 made a mistake. A 'schoolboy error'.

If I understood stuart45's point correctly, he was saying there's two sides to a story. If you don't have the other side then it is easy to draw the wrong conclusion.

If this thread had been about stuart45's greenhouse "error" I'd have been doing exactly the same thing as I have been - pointing out that the blockwork was all laid level, the joints were even, the pointing neatly done, and overall looking like a very good job.  I'd be saying that we need to think about the inconsistency between everything looking good, apart from one issue, and the theory stuart45 had made a "schoolboy error". It doesn't make sense.  It fails the 'sanity' test.  We need stuart45's side of the story.

Exactly the same applies to this tiling.  The only difference is that unlike stuart45, the tiler isn't on this forum to explain why he made the decision he did.  If he was, I think there's a very good chance you'd agree with him.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Did the tiler really use his best judgement, or did the tiler make a mistake with significant consequences. I can only conclude it's the latter. I might, of course, be wrong here, but nothing else makes sense.

The tiles have apparently been aligned so they are perpendicular to the threshold of the hallway door.  In the circumstances it makes perfect sense, even if it doesn't match the expectations of the client (and majority? on here).

If the tiles had been laid aligned to the units then other clients might complain that when standing in the doorway there was a 'squint' on them.  We are dealing with personal preferences and perceptions here, not black and white facts.  There cannot be a single 'correct' opinion.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Because that's the other issue on this thread - Jack has been tackled for not pointing out how he wanted the tiles laid out in advance (as if he should have known there would be an issue) wheras no-one (I don't think) has suggested that the pro should have communicated with Jack.

I find this a bit weird.

Jack hasn't "been tackled".

It has been pointed out that if the client doesn't specify something then they are leaving it up to the professional to make the decision using their experience and judgement.

This matters - it isn't argument for the sake of having an argument - because if Jack goes 'legal' the court will decide liability based on whether or not the tiler did a professional job (in the round), rather than whether or not the tiler met the client's alignment specification.

Leaving something up to a professional's judgement is an entirely legitimate approach - but there are consequences of doing so.

One of which is having limited scope for complaint if they don't do what you thought they would.

"But it does mean that your 180o was (and still is) based on duff evidence. [not making a 'point', but trying to explain where you have gone wrong]". Yes, absolutely. My opinion is based on the evidence provided; if that is significantly not as presented, then clearly I could/would be totally wrong. A 5.5cm deviation down the LH side which, if corrected, would also have largely sorted out 2 other sides as well, seems pretty solid, tho'. But, if that's wrong, so am I.

"Leaving something up to a professional's judgement is an entirely legitimate approach - but there are consequences of doing so." Do the consequences include living with a professional's mistake - if mistake it was?

"Jack hasn't "been tackled""

Maybe take it as a bit of a lesson - tradespeople need to be managed. If you leave them to it without making your expectations clear, you're setting yourself up for problems.

but why don't people check in on at least part of a job so that mistakes can be called out when they're fresh and the job isn't finished!

If you don't want to pay someone to supervise and project manage it's fine, but you have to do all of that yourself and the buck does stop at you

A key function of supervision is to have (at least) a second person to (ideally) catch the mistakes of the first - at a time where rectification is possible with minimum cost/waste/delay. Save money/effort on supervision, pay for it with avoidable errors and mistakes

If you put at least two sets of eyes on it, it's unlikely to go wrong in the first place. 

So we're agreed.  It's a good idea to pop in and check that everything is going okay a few hours into the job to save any later heartache.

An occasional look-in when critical stuff is happening is often all it takes.

which is why stuart45 and Doozergirl's comments about communications and supervision are spot on, especially when you are letting a stranger loose on your home and hundreds of pounds worth of building materials.

I'm completely with Doozergirl that it is better to deal with stuff before it becomes a problem, rather than deal with the consequences after.

It is also important and relevant that you explained to the tiler beforehand about the table and fridge with an awareness of how these will impact on the visibility of differences in the bay window area and the rear wall.  The bay window area is clearly the least 'correct'.  Did you explicitly tell him that you wanted any differences to be in that area?

I'm still saying though that if you don't have a project manager, you should be checking that what is happening is exactly what you want, particularly because what you have isn't so different

Totally agree and if it was critical to the OP that the tiles were parallel to the left hand side units as you enter the kitchen this should have been communicated to the tiles before work started

All of the above seems to place a responsibility on the layman-customer to quality-control. And also seem to assume, as in Jack's case, that they should have some pre-knowledge of potential issues like out of square rooms, so should arm this tiler with this info, when the tiler should obviously be working this out for themselves. And should have the visual acumen to detect an error when checking up on the tiler - what should Jack have done, step over the kneeling tiler with a tape measure in his hand?  All this, even tho' the identical tiling that was ripped up had been laid very acceptably indeed. Because it was done correctly.

At last you get the OP has made a mistake. 

NSG666

All. I've just had a thought. Maybe the tiler was distracted by an ongoing 'debate' he was having on the MSE forum? 

Jeepers_Creepers

DB1904 said:

Totally agree and if it was critical to the OP that the tiles were parallel to the left hand side units as you enter the kitchen this should have been communicated to the tiles before work started

At last you get the OP has made a mistake. 

That was someone else's comment, not mine. These are all comments made by others. I cited them because they have in common, as far as I can see, some implication that the customer has some responsibility to monitor the pro's work. 

I honestly do not think - I cannot see how - the customer in this case has any culpability whatsoever.

If Jack knew the room was out-of-square, then, yes, he could have told the guy. But, blimey, how embarrassing would that have been? If Jack didn't know, then he had nothing to tell this guy at the start. Either way, it's not his responsibility to check up on the guy mid-work!

I've been there, since I do have an awareness of most things 'building', and so - when discussing a job - I've sometimes 'light-heartedly' tried to casually drop into the chat a potential 'issue' that I hope they won't miss. I'm still not hardened to the baleful looks I get given... Many pros do feel patronised by such comments - as IF they miss such an obvious thing. 

"Oh, Mr Tiler - I don't think the room is square!"

"No, but you are, pal..."

DB1904

Jeepers_Creepers said:

DB1904 said:

Totally agree and if it was critical to the OP that the tiles were parallel to the left hand side units as you enter the kitchen this should have been communicated to the tiles before work started

At last you get the OP has made a mistake. 

That was someone else's comment, not mine. These are all comments made by others. I cited them because they have in common, as far as I can see, some implication that the customer has some responsibility to monitor the pro's work. 

I honestly do not think - I cannot see how - the customer in this case has any culpability whatsoever.

If Jack knew the room was out-of-square, then, yes, he could have told the guy. But, blimey, how embarrassing would that have been? If Jack didn't know, then he had nothing to tell this guy at the start. Either way, it's not his responsibility to check up on the guy mid-work!

I've been there, since I do have an awareness of most things 'building', and so - when discussing a job - I've sometimes 'light-heartedly' tried to casually drop into the chat a potential 'issue' that I hope they won't miss. I'm still not hardened to the baleful looks I get given... Many pros do feel patronised by such comments - as IF they miss such an obvious thing. 

"Oh, Mr Tiler - I don't think the room is square!"

"No, but you are, pal..."

So what has the pro timer done wrong if it goes to court?

The tiles were laid with reasonable skill and care, you acknowledge that. From the OP's sketch with measurements the work has been set out using a laser from the entry point into the room. Whether or not that was the correct thing to do is down to personal opinion, the room isn't square. The OP didn't check the work and you say it's reasonable not to and let the pro get on with his job.

So once complete the OP doesn't like the aesthetics of the work and you think he has a good case?

Jeepers_Creepers

DB1904 said:

Whether or not that was the correct thing to do is down to personal opinion, the room isn't square.

No, it isn't 'personal opinion'.

Based on the info provided, it was a mistake. There is a far better and far more obvious layout, and that's the one carried out by the previous tiler. And would have been done by me as a DIYer. It's that obvious. I would have stood in the doorway and asked myself - "how will this look best?" The answer is bleedin' obvious.

If Jack were to pursue this - tho' I hope he can live with it - then the first thing would be to employ a surveyor. I am really pretty certain, really nigh-on 97.45% sure, that the surveyor will say, "M'lud, he boobed. This is what he should have done - no excuses..."

Apology accepted for wrongly citing me as the author of the previous quote, by the way. I guess you must have been in a real hurry to say 'Gothcha...'

DB1904

Jeepers_Creepers said:

DB1904 said:

Whether or not that was the correct thing to do is down to personal opinion, the room isn't square.

No, it isn't personal opinion.

Based on the info provided, it was a mistake. There is a far better and far more obvious layout, and that's the one carried out by the previous tiler. And would have been done by me as a DIYer. It's that obvious.

Apology accepted for wrongly citing me as the author of the previous quote, by the way. I guess must have been in a real hurry to say 'Gothcha...'

Far better or more obvious doesn't make what's been done wrong. 

Jeepers_Creepers

Whatevs...

DB1904

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Whatevs...

Very mature. 

stuart45

I hope Jack keeps us updated with the results of this. Him and the tiler seem a long way off on the valuation of the job. One expects payment in full and Jack probably would like it ripped up and replaced with the cost of materials going to the tiler.