Tiling Job - Tiles not straight

Rosa_Damascena

stuart45 said:

The best tilers I've ever seen were some Italian lads when working in Germany many years ago. They said that most of them started their apprenticeships at 14. Really fast workers, but top quality work.

I bet they could lay marble well too.

Jack_Bauer

Hey everyone,

Firstly thank you all for your continued comments and support. It is very much appreciated.

I spent a few hours yesterday evening, using spare tiles and some masking tape to mask out the layout I would have expected the tiler to have done. I used the left hand side of the kitchen and the wooden hallway lines (which perfectly line up btw) as my reference point. I've tried to be as accurate as possible with my measures having  triple checked them, and also having included several deviation points

The scale drawing is below. To summarise:

• 0cm deviation on left hand side kitchen units to masking tape line. (Hallway wooden floor lines perfectly lined up)
  
• 2cm deviation on top kitchen units to masking tape line. (My kitchen gets 2cm wider from left to right. The worktop is 2cm wider at the top right end vs the top left end).
  
• 2cm deviation on bottom end of kitchen (hallway/wall end) to masking tape line
• 6cm deviation end to end on bay window side of kitchen to masking tape line
  
• 2cm deviation in the bay window start and end points to masking tape line
  

In summary, at the main focul point which I think obviously is the long end of the kitchen and the hallway wood lines, when looking into and walking into the kitchen, you are unable to discern any deviation. Everything is straight. The masking tape lines up perfectly to the units and the wooden groove lines in the hallway. This is how it was previously laid aswell.

The bottom end and the top end of the kitchen have a deviation of 2cm which isn't that discernable. The right hand side has a 6cm deviation end to end and a 2cm deviation within the bay window area. Here is where the most deviation should be as here, due to the limited viewing angles, and the fact the area will be covered, it would not be so discenarble. You'd have to stand right in the bottom right hand corner of the room (where we will be putting our fridge) and look straight past the bay window (where we will be putting our dining table) to see this deviation. I've included pictures of all this below too.

What the tiler has actually done is below. To summarise:

• 5.5cm deviation on left hand side kitchen units to grout line. (Hallway wooden floor lines not lined up)
• 5.5cm deviation on top kitchen units to grout line
  
• 2cm deviation on bottom end of kitchen (hallway/wall end) to grout line
  
• 12.5cm deviation end to end on bay window side of kitchen to grout line
  
• 6cm deviation in the bay window start and end points to grout line
  

By doing all this, we've also discovered the tilers reference point. It was the hallway. To be exact, the tiler laid a complete tile, with no cuts, more or less flush with the wooden flooring. What the tiler should have done, is laid this first tile at a very slight angle, rotated a bit to the right, leaving a gap of about 1cm between the end of the tile to the hallway wood on the left side of the tile. There was no need to make the tile flush with the hallway as a door bar would comfortablely hide the 1cm gap. The priority should have been lining up the tiles with the kitchen units and the wooden flooring lines, not to try and make the first tile flush where the wooden flooring ends. This I believe is the fundamental mistake the tiler has made and has caused all this increased deviation. He has assumed the hallway and kitchen to be flush and that was his starting point.

Had he done it correctly, he would have been flush on the left hand side, and cut his deviation on the top end and right hand side by over half. The deviation on the bottom end would remain the same.

This simple mistake and the increased deviation, means that as soon as you walk into the kitchen, you immediately notice the tiles are not straight with the units.

Pictures are no comparison to real life viewing but I've included pictures for reference below.

phoebe1989seb

I feel your pain, Jack, as - living in a 400 year old mill - we too have extremely wonky walls/rooms that widen etc... I know it was a complete pain when we were positioning the island in our kitchen, for example as the walls veer out on every side 🙄

Forgive me if I've missed it and you already answered the question, but did the tiler do it all in one day, including the grouting?

If not, ie, he tiled one day and grouted the next, did you not notice the discrepancies over night before the grouting was done? Or perhaps you were staying elsewhere whilst the work was completed?

Again, apologies if this has already been covered elsewhere in your thread and hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction 😉

Rosa_Damascena

If it's any consolation, I really like your wooden floors!

Jack_Bauer

The tiler started the work on Monday 19th July and finished the tiling on Friday 23rd July at around 1pm.

As far as I understand it, on the Monday, the tiler put down the insulation board and did some floor levelling. The tiler didn't work on the Tuesday. On Wednesday I believe the electric underfloor matting and cabling went on. On Thursday I believe the tiles went down and on the Friday I believe the grout and sealent went on.

This tiler started working on my kitchen back on the 19th of February and his starting point was to remove the existing self levelling component and plywood. This is when he noticed the rotten floorboards towards the back of the kitchen.

I had another tiler take up the tiles back in January I believe but he didn't take up the plywood but instead, opted to try and level it using self levelling component and then tiles back again, with the heated cabling. He completely ruined the self levelling component, having made it all crack all over the place. He had decided to do a runner after that with no payment. This is when our most recent tiler took on the job.

We decided to take the plywood up and replace it with insulation board to get better performance out of the underfloor heating. This is when we discovered the rotten floorboards, which took several months to repair as no-one wanted the job.

Doozergirl

The shape of the room, as shown in Picture 2 does not reflect the shape of the room in the drawings.  The tiles have been laid in line with the 'bottom' wall until they hit a reveal that doesn't appear on your plan.  There is no deviation there.  

It looks better now that the other tape has been removed and the 'correct' tape applied.  

It's off, but it's not exactly earth shattering. With the perspective of the camera, it doesn't look like there's a problem that can't be tolerated, but there's a reason why you shouldn't start with a full tile, evidently.   

I'm still saying though that if you don't have a project manager, you should be checking that what is happening is exactly what you want, particularly because what you have isn't so different.  Aside from the angle, it does look like a good job.  You did have ample time to stop it while it was happening and it could be argued it's hindsight that makes it unacceptable.  

Is it unreasonable to want to make the tiler entirely responsible all labour and materials?  Yes, I think it is.  Is it worth a discount? Probably.  

There's a couple of things emerged after 11 pages that makes me think that the OP probably knows that as well.  

Jack_Bauer

Doozergirl said:

The shape of the room, as shown in Picture 2 does not reflect the shape of the room in the drawings.  The tiles have been laid in line with the 'bottom' wall until they hit a reveal that doesn't appear on your plan.  There is no deviation there.  

It looks better now that the other tape has been removed and the 'correct' tape applied.  

It's off, but it's not exactly earth shattering. With the perspective of the camera, it doesn't look like there's a problem that can't be tolerated, but there's a reason why you shouldn't start with a full tile, evidently.   

I'm still saying though that if you don't have a project manager, you should be checking that what is happening is exactly what you want, particularly because what you have isn't so different.  Aside from the angle, it does look like a good job.  You did have ample time to stop it while it was happening and it could be argued it's hindsight that makes it unacceptable.  

Is it unreasonable to want to make the tiler entirely responsible all labour and materials?  Yes, I think it is.  Is it worth a discount? Probably.  

There's a couple of things emerged after 11 pages that makes me think that the OP probably knows that as well.  

Hi Doozergirl,

As my measurements show, there is a clear deviation of 2cm on that back wall. The hallway section recesses 2cm towards the left hand size and 1cm towards the right hand side compared with the wall. The wall itself isn't straight either, with a 0.5cm deviation between the right most corner and the wall part that meets the door. The drawing shows all this with the measurements at all 4 points when compared with a straight grout line that is flush with the kitchen unit.

The tiles laid by the tiler have not been laid in line with the bottom wall. If you look at the picture more closely, the tile at the hallway, which has not been cut, is sitting flush with the wood, whereas the tile in the top right corner, which also hasn't been cut on the length edge,is not flush with the wall. There is in fact an increasing gap that the tiler filled at the top edge with grout.

It is off, and no it is not off to the point where it's 'earth shattering', but the point is, it is off on every single wall, to the point where when walking into the room, you notice immediately that the tiles are in fact slanted against the units. Like I said, pictures do not do this justice. It may be acceptable for some people but after having been what we've been through, and £5500 later, just to get to the point where we were to start with, with the exception with the tiles now instead of being cracked and moving, are not sitting entirely straight, it's a hard pill to swallow. Especially for a details person like myself.

The fact of the matter is, it is off and off enough to be noticeable.

The tiles were all laid in one day. I'm currently living 10 minutes away by car from where I am staying and I don't have access to a car as my wife takes it to work. We live in East London but she works in Cambridge. I have had countless trademen come to my house, from plumbers to replace lead piping, to gas engineers to do a poweflush and replace my radiator valves, to window fitters to replace fogged mirrors, to damp proofers to fix our water issues, to kitchen fitters to replace the flooring, to drainage experts to try and find the source of our issues and so on. I cannot be expected to babysit them all in a vacant house, whilst holding a job, whilst my pregnant wife takes our only means of transportation to work. There has to be a level of trust with your tradesmen whom you hand your keys over to. All our other works have gone without a hitch. Besides, laying tiles straight against an obvious reference point shouldn't need a full blown project manager to ensure it's done right. Like I said, the tiles are straight to no reference point at present other than the flushness of the hallway, which I've already explained, is not straight. It is deviated by 1cm, edge to edge. This small deviation becomes accentuated against the lenghts of the kitchen, creating the devation distances i've explained.

I understand your point that if I was checking in on my tradesmen, I might have caught this earlier, but not everyones situation allows for such things.

For a details person like myself, the result is unacceptable, however my wife is pushing to ask for a discount. I think i'll be asking for a decent chunk off to compensate for the fact I am stuck with deviated tiles against every edge of my kitchen, that it is noticeable when immediately walking into the kitchen and that it will annoy the hell out of me, considering the journey to get to this point.

Doozergirl

It doesn't sit right with me.  

"I don't have the time or ability to be present to check that you're doing things correctly, despite me being highly detailed, so I'll just hold you entirely responsible when it goes wrong - according to my level of detail that I neither provided or checked until you'd finished"

There are people, called project managers,  that do the job that you don't feel that you need to.   Much of the time you'll be fine, but sometimes you get caught out if you don't supervise.   The cost saving you make pays for those.    

Most of the people you have employed don't need to deal in the final visual details.  Even the kitchen fitters didn't feel the need to fit the kitchen at a 90 degree angle, according to the preferred tiling option.  

I'm with your wife.  

Jeepers_Creepers

Hi Jack.

It's very disappointing indeed, especially after all you have been through with this kitchen. I do have to say, tho', that I don't think it's reasonable to cite the total £5.5k spent, the months of anguish, the rotten floor, the tiler that absconded after doing a third-rate job, and all the malarkey that's gone on before this when it comes to addressing how you feel about the current situation. Yes, it all adds up to a complete 'mare, but this current tiler wasn't responsible for anything that went before; this has to be looked at only as a separate £2.1k UFH and tiling job by the latest guy.

That's your starting point - as if this had been the only job carried out on your kitchen floor.

And, yes, it does look like he messed up - almost certainly he could have laid the tiles out in a far more effective way. This was a fundamental error - a real novice move - that most novices wouldn't have done.

The situation is compounded by the fact that there's UFH under there; the cost of redoing the tiling becomes much greater and therefore more out of proportion to the error.

It's hellish. I don't know what to suggest - it has, I'm afraid, to be your call. If you can live with it with a sizeable discount, then that would be very good of you. I think the tiler should be pretty desperate to go with this, as he must know he made a mistake; this was simply not, by any chalk, the best way to lay out the tiles. .

NSG666

Hi Jack, if you can sort this out with the tiler direct then happy days but if you cannot and decide to go legal then the points raised by Doozergirl may well come into play. We have established that there is no logical explanation as to what the tiler did and we feel you are entitled to some form of redress. We can suggest what we think that redress should be but we cannot decide for you nor enforce it.

Now we have reached this point I really can't see what further there is to be gained from this thread. If you want legal advice then you need to look elsewhere.

What ever you decide to do, good luck.