Tiling Job - Tiles not straight

benson1980

Section62 said:

Jack_Bauer said:

The tiler claims it is my responsibility to have told him to have laid it differently than what has been done, even though he never had that conversation with me and I thought it blindingly obvious that the tiles should line up to the kitchen units so it doesn't look wonky.

Waiting for him to response but in the meantime, i'm wondering if I can get in trouble for refusing the rest of the payment.

Jack, could you confirm whether the tiler is the same one that started the job back in February, and if so, whether the outstanding payment relates only to laying the new tiles, or if you still owe money for the work he did lifting the old floor.

In my view that is going to make a difference in how a court would treat any claim and/or counter-claim if things go that far.

You won't "get in trouble" as such, but the tiler could go down the legal route to try and get payment, just as you might decide to try to claim money from him for the cost of getting someone else to redo the work.  If you were ordered to make a payment and refused to do so, that is when things could possibly get more serious.

The other thing that it is only right to point out is that good traders often talk to each other about people they (rightly or wrongly) consider to be 'bad' customers.  If you have other work you want doing in future it would be a good idea to have a think about how non-payment for this job might impact on your ability to get good traders to do work for you when you need it.  I'm not saying that means you must pay for poor quality work you aren't happy with, but like a lot in life it is necessary to think about the bigger picture.

Personally speaking- when deserved I’ve left negative reviews for tradespeople on review sites/google etc. to warn others, and not paid on one occasion when the job was a complete p take. But also take time to write detailed reviews about the good ones. We’ve never struggled to employ people when we need to.

WaywardDriver

Is the tiler a member of a professional body? If so you should follow their complaints procedure.

NSG666

Jack depending on what you want you might need to make sure that you follow the correct procedures to cover / prepare for a claim via small claims court.

If you are looking for him to cover the cost of the wasted materials then you might need to take him to court.
If he wants paying the balance he will have to take you to court.
Or you both want to take each other to court i.e. claim and counter claim (I don't know how that works)

S62 and JC, Doozergirl and me could all get into a 'heated debate' again about whether he's responsible for materials but, unless anyone has legal experience, we would only be guessing. 

Somewhere along the line I think you will need to write to him and spell out what you expect. Depending on what he says you might need to get quotes to have the work re-done and put them to him.

If the tiler paid the electrician to provide a power point for the UFH then that part of the bill would be taken out of your claim if all done ok.

You might be better putting a post in the Consumer Rights section of the forum (with a link to this one) and hope that it is picked up and replied to by Jenni_D who seems to know what she's talking about on the legal front.

Jeepers_Creepers

Jack_Bauer said:

Hi everyone,

Thank you for your input. It's very much appreciated. That being said, I'm still unsure as to the next steps.

The tiler has certainly made a mistake and still refuses to accept liability as he claims the job has been done to a good enough standard. He also doesn't seem able to clearly explain what the reference point was with regards to lining it all up.

I've asked for the work to be redone. So far all he's said is "I don't have cover for someone wanting it done differently after it's been laid". I've invited him over for me to explain to him how it's deviated and for him to explain what his reference point is. So far no response.

The tiler claims it is my responsibility to have told him to have laid it differently than what has been done, even though he never had that conversation with me and I thought it blindingly obvious that the tiles should line up to the kitchen units so it doesn't look wonky.

Waiting for him to response but in the meantime, i'm wondering if I can get in trouble for refusing the rest of the payment.

Jack, based on the photo of the bay window tiling of the previous job, and on the dimensioned sketch you added on page 3 (although it lacked some details), it seems very clear that the tiler has not just failed to choose the 'best' layout compromise when dealing with possibly out-of-square walls, but has managed - incredibly - to get all 4 sides wrong, by a not dissimilar amount on all 4 walls.

Ie, had he laid out the tiles with a  roughly two degree(?) clockwise rotation to his poorly-chosen line, the tiles would have sat nigh-on perfectly with all 4 sides.

And you know this is correct, because the previous tiler managed to carry out this basic task - as, of course, they should have. As, of course, most DIY tilers would have too.

In other words, your current tiler didn't measure up, determine that the walls were (possibly) not 'square', scratch his head, do some calcs, and then decide "I know the best compromise that'll ensure the most aesthetic layout of the tiles", but did, almost certainly, and very simply, make a mistake.

His chosen layout made what should have been an 'ok' situation 'bad'. His action is what has caused this problem. On a different day, he wouldn't have made this mistake. 999 out of 1,000 other tilers would not have made this mistake.

It is not a 'side' that's 'out', it's all 4 sides that are out by roughly the same amount, and in the same way.

Had he done this correctly - had he not made this error - the tiles would have looked great.

He isn't 'incompetent'; the actual job - the flush level, the consistent grout lines and stuff like that - looks great. He just laid them out wrongly.

That's an 'oops'.

What isn't an 'oops' is him now trying to evade responsibility, hoping you'll accept his 'explanation' - 'it is correct, 'cos I used a laser this and that'.

So, based on what you have told us and shown us, this is 100% down to his error. We don't know when he became aware of this, but aware of it he surely was at some point. Why? Because he's an expert, and knows what tile alignment is all about.

Because it was an avoidable error and nothing else (I don't think that's in dispute), and because the outcome is pretty obvious (tho' open to some subjectivity), I think you are entitled to insist it is put right at no additional cost to you.

That's a 'biggie' ask, but it doesn't mean it ain't the right call. He should have indemnity insurance to cover such issues (tho' usually nothing as silly as a layout error).

What would be your chances of success should you pursue this legally? Based on the info you have provided, I'd have thought way more than 50%. Comfortably more.

There will be an element of "Ok, just how hard is this to live with?" In your favour is that your kitchen is clearly 'high end', the standard of finish you have aimed for throughout is 'high', and you have been prepared to pay for this level of finish. Also the simple fact that the previous tile layout was 'spot on'.

If this goes 'legal', then most likely an independent surveyor will be required, but if they confirm that this was completely an 'error' - out equally on all 4 sides - I think your case is rock solid.

Just be factual and upfront in your approach to him. "I know this is hellish for you, but I have measured up the discrepancy on all 4 sides, and it's roughly the same, and in the same direction. The whole area of tiles are simply wrongly aligned, and must surely have been a setting-out error? There is no other explanation I can think of. If you had laid the tiles out correctly, and like they were done originally, then it would be pretty much spot-on everywhere, and I'd be a delighted customer. Sorry, but what you've done is unacceptable - I just cannot live with it. It is not what I paid you for. I know you are a good tiler - the work is otherwise superb - but you must have made this mistake at the beginning, and that - I'm afraid - has spoiled it all. I don't want this to get messy and unpleasant between us, but this is my dream home and I have to insist you sort it out. Please do the right thing - and I will pay up as agreed, and give you glowing reviews."

If he says 'Non', then you tell him that you will therefore have to take legal action to recoup the cost of having it redone by someone else, bill him for the cost, and you will win.

It is, of course, also up to you to decide whether there's a value you can place on the aesthetics that'll compensate.

Jeepers_Creepers

Rosa_Damascena said:

I see the other side of the story, who wants to hire this tiler after seeing his quality of work. No pride has been taken in it whatsoever (she says as the happy owner of 40 sqm of newly-tiled floor). 

I thought - overall - it looked pretty good! :-) I think he does take pride in his work.

He just made a mistake. That's 'all'.

stuart45

I've made plenty of mistakes in my time, but you just have to hold your hands up to it, rip down and put it right. It's annoying but in time you learn to cut them out. 
If you are a subbie working for a company you don't get paid a penny for anything that gets torn down. 

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

...but has managed - incredibly - to get all 4 sides wrong, by a not dissimilar amount on all 4 walls.

Ie, had he laid out the tiles with a  roughly two degree(?) clockwise rotation to his poorly-chosen line, the tiles would have sat nigh-on perfectly with all 4 sides.

Jeepers, I don't want this to become another protracted 'discussion', but this point you've made is simply wrong.  It is there in black and white on the Jack's sketch.

The difference along the hallway wall is 20mm.  The difference along the units opposite (the one with the sink) is 60mm.

Rotating the tiles to close the 20mm gap won't close the 60mm gap.  Rotating them to close the 60mm gap would more than close the 20mm gap.  There needs to be a choice (or else a compromise) between the two.

We also can't comment on the gap with the units where the hob is, or the bay window, because the room is rectangular and not square-shaped.  The aspect ratio of the tiled area is not 1:1.  Therefore whether the required rotation angle to align the tiles with the hob units is the same as the one on the other sides is not known without Jack doing further measurements.


For Jack's sake that point is really important - and hopefully we can find a way to agree. Otherwise if he bases his claim on it being possible for the tiler to do a near-perfect job on all 4 sides then all the tiler has to do is use Jack's own figures to show that was in fact impossible.

If I'm wrong, and you have a rotation method that would close both the 20mm gap and the 60mm (to something close to perfectly), then I would ask genuinely, please explain it to me.  Because after years of using CAD and trigonometry in surveying and engineering design it isn't a method I can see.

NSG666

Section 62

Have another look at Jack's drawing.
Left hand wall runs from 32 to 25 bottom to top
'Top' wall runs 44 to 38 left to right and
'Bottom' wall runs from 0 to 2 left to right

Add 7 to the 25 = 32 (parallel)
Add 7 to the 38 = 45 (runs off by 1cm but as it's a shorter wall, adding 7 to the left wall might only add 6 to the top wall)
Deduct 7 from 2 = -5

Unfortunately we don't know the relevant dimensions for the bay window wall but Jack's photos show the grout line getting closer from top to bottom.

Don't know without the dimension but it is possible that only the bottom wall is significantly out of square.

But hey, I don't want to wade in and create any arguments.

koalakoala

It’s just a pity you didn’t look at the tiling before he finished. Did he leave it overnight before grouting?

Section62

NSG666 said:

Section 62

Have another look at Jack's drawing.
Left hand wall runs from 32 to 25 bottom to top
'Top' wall runs 44 to 38 left to right and
'Bottom' wall runs from 0 to 2 left to right

Add 7 to the 25 = 32 (parallel)
Add 7 to the 38 = 45 (runs off by 1cm but as it's a shorter wall, adding 7 to the left wall might only add 6 to the top wall)
Deduct 7 from 2 = -5

Unfortunately we don't know the relevant dimensions for the bay window wall but Jack's photos show the grout line getting closer from top to bottom.

Don't know without the dimension but it is possible that only the bottom wall is significantly out of square.

But hey, I don't want to wade in and create any arguments.

So we are agreeing that you can get one line right (likely the most important one for the majority of folks), but then the shorter two will both be a 'bit off'?   (using a "bit off" to avoid any controversy over the amounts)


A question then for Jack  is how acceptable those two 'bits off' would be, if he can't have perfection?