Tiling Job - Tiles not straight

benson1980

I think it provides a good overview though of what is needed to deal with tradespersons. Trust no one, and assume everyone will try and cut corners. Let’s face it- a lot of things such as painting, tiling etc. It’s not difficult but to prep and do it right, takes time. And time is money.

Hence why experience has taught me that it is sometimes less stressful to research, buy the tools and just do things myself where I can, and time allows.

I agree with what you say JB. Just real life dictates otherwise. At least the power is in your hands in terms of payment. I know what I’d do and that’s knock off the labour for the tiling part of the job, and possibly materials as well. They won’t go legal as they know they’ve done a bad job.

stuart45

My guess is that the best you are going to get from this tiler is a discount. I doubt he is up for a tear down and replacing all the materials at his expense. 
However for most subbies on site, anything that gets torn down comes out of their retention fee, including materials even if they are labour only.

Section62

NSG666 said:

We have established that there is no logical explanation as to what the tiler did...

I agree with Jack on this point.  There is a logical explanation and I think if that is the reason then it could be said the tiler has made a rational and justifiable decision to lay the tiles in a way his professional experience told him was the best way to do it

The tiler could argue that in court, and in my view stand a good chance of winning.

He's probably taken a line across the doorway and used his fabled laser to lay out a perpendicular, such that the grout lines are 'straight' in front of you as you walk through the door.

Is that the 'correct' way to do it?  We could all argue the toss till the cows come home, but could Jack find a law, or legal precedent, or an expert witness that would say unequivocally the tiler's method is 'wrong'?

There's lots to say that the tiles should align with the longer run of units, but is that being argued on the basis of Jack's sketch showing the front of the units more or less aligned with the left of the hallway door, and misses out that big lump of solid wall which means you'll never be looking along that plinth line square-on?

The thing which is square-on to the hallway door is the pair of grout-lines, as the tiler has laid them out.

Jack is understandably unhappy that all 4 edges are unaligned, but says he would be happy if it was only 3.  He needs to pause for a moment and consider what a judge would think about that position if shown pictures that show the job has been executed to a high standard overall.  Is it reasonable to argue about one grout-line when that alignment wasn't specifically requested.

There's other relevant information which has emerged today, but there's been enough 'discussion' with JC about that stuff already.

So I'm with Doozergirl and Jack's wife.  The job is not that bad, and will probably look better when the skirting and plinth has been finished.

IMV the best Jack can hope for is a discount on the labour. I'd ask nicely, and then not push it if the tiler is minded to go legal.

Because litigation is always risky.  Don't start it, and don't encourage it, even if you think you have a 100% chance of winning.

DB1904

Section62 said:

NSG666 said:

We have established that there is no logical explanation as to what the tiler did...

I agree with Jack on this point.  There is a logical explanation and I think if that is the reason then it could be said the tiler has made a rational and justifiable decision to lay the tiles in a way his professional experience told him was the best way to do it

The tiler could argue that in court, and in my view stand a good chance of winning.

He's probably taken a line across the doorway and used his fabled laser to lay out a perpendicular, such that the grout lines are 'straight' in front of you as you walk through the door.

Is that the 'correct' way to do it?  We could all argue the toss till the cows come home, but could Jack find a law, or legal precedent, or an expert witness that would say unequivocally the tiler's method is 'wrong'?

There's lots to say that the tiles should align with the longer run of units, but is that being argued on the basis of Jack's sketch showing the front of the units more or less aligned with the left of the hallway door, and misses out that big lump of solid wall which means you'll never be looking along that plinth line square-on?

The thing which is square-on to the hallway door is the pair of grout-lines, as the tiler has laid them out.

Jack is understandably unhappy that all 4 edges are unaligned, but says he would be happy if it was only 3.  He needs to pause for a moment and consider what a judge would think about that position if shown pictures that show the job has been executed to a high standard overall.  Is it reasonable to argue about one grout-line when that alignment wasn't specifically requested.

There's other relevant information which has emerged today, but there's been enough 'discussion' with JC about that stuff already.

So I'm with Doozergirl and Jack's wife.  The job is not that bad, and will probably look better when the skirting and plinth has been finished.

IMV the best Jack can hope for is a discount on the labour. I'd ask nicely, and then not push it if the tiler is minded to go legal.

Because litigation is always risky.  Don't start it, and don't encourage it, even if you think you have a 100% chance of winning.

Totally agree and if it was critical to the OP that the tiles were parallel to the left hand side units as you enter the kitchen this should have been communicated to the tiles before work started.

koalakoala

12 pages of replies, surely it’s time to come to a decision ?

Jeepers_Creepers

DB1904 said:

Section62 said:

NSG666 said:

We have established that there is no logical explanation as to what the tiler did...

I agree with Jack on this point.  There is a logical explanation and I think if that is the reason then it could be said the tiler has made a rational and justifiable decision to lay the tiles in a way his professional experience told him was the best way to do it

The tiler could argue that in court, and in my view stand a good chance of winning.

He's probably taken a line across the doorway and used his fabled laser to lay out a perpendicular, such that the grout lines are 'straight' in front of you as you walk through the door.

Is that the 'correct' way to do it?  We could all argue the toss till the cows come home, but could Jack find a law, or legal precedent, or an expert witness that would say unequivocally the tiler's method is 'wrong'?

There's lots to say that the tiles should align with the longer run of units, but is that being argued on the basis of Jack's sketch showing the front of the units more or less aligned with the left of the hallway door, and misses out that big lump of solid wall which means you'll never be looking along that plinth line square-on?

The thing which is square-on to the hallway door is the pair of grout-lines, as the tiler has laid them out.

Jack is understandably unhappy that all 4 edges are unaligned, but says he would be happy if it was only 3.  He needs to pause for a moment and consider what a judge would think about that position if shown pictures that show the job has been executed to a high standard overall.  Is it reasonable to argue about one grout-line when that alignment wasn't specifically requested.

There's other relevant information which has emerged today, but there's been enough 'discussion' with JC about that stuff already.

So I'm with Doozergirl and Jack's wife.  The job is not that bad, and will probably look better when the skirting and plinth has been finished.

IMV the best Jack can hope for is a discount on the labour. I'd ask nicely, and then not push it if the tiler is minded to go legal.

Because litigation is always risky.  Don't start it, and don't encourage it, even if you think you have a 100% chance of winning.

Totally agree and if it was critical to the OP that the tiles were parallel to the left hand side units as you enter the kitchen this should have been communicated to the tiles before work started.

S62 will know that this has been the essence of our discussion.

Jack, the customer, the layman, the homeowner, is supposedly meant to be aware that his walls are squint, and he should therefore be the one communicating his preferred layout to the professional tiler. Really?

Ladies and gentlemen, how many of you know how off-square your rooms are? And, if you were having your kitchen floor covered, how many of you would carry out all the necessary measurements beforehand so that you could communicate your preferences to the tradesperson to take in any anomaly?

Not me. And this was the case when we had laminate flooring put down in a couple of rooms recently. One of these rooms has 6 sides - it tapers slightly, and purposely, towards one end. Did I check the angles to see they were symmetrical? Nope. Did I measure the length of any wall? Nope.

What did I do? I told the recommended professional which direction I preferred the boards to lay, and let him get on with his work. And lovely it is.

What would I have expected had he discovered an anomaly? Well, he did - a raised area towards one end of the room. And he did the right thing - he pointed it out to me and we discussed options, one of which we both agreed was best.

IF this guy had laid the flooring 'squint' or IF this guy had left my floor wobbling over that peak, then I'd have spoken to him nicely but firmly about sorting it. But, of course, he didn't. Why? Because he was a professional, and didn't make any mistakes.

Had it gone wrong, not for one second would I have considered this my responsibility in any way.

People, based on the measurements and pictures Jack has shown us, how many of you would have laid out the tiling as this tiler did? And how many of you would have laid them out as Jack considers is the better way?

Yes, me too.

I am not at all comfortable with the insinuation that the customer - Jack in this case - has some responsibility for this professional's error/poor decision.

Has anyone on here suggested that the tiler should have discussed the options with Jack, and not the other way around? And isn't the very first thing this guy would have done is to measure up the room accurately, whereupon he would have realised that it wasn't square, and would then have asked to speak to his customer to discuss the options?

I totally get it isn't completely 'open and shut', and litigation can go in some weird ways so is a risk unless watertight. But, jeepers.

DB1904

Jeepers_Creepers said:

DB1904 said:

Section62 said:

NSG666 said:

We have established that there is no logical explanation as to what the tiler did...

I agree with Jack on this point.  There is a logical explanation and I think if that is the reason then it could be said the tiler has made a rational and justifiable decision to lay the tiles in a way his professional experience told him was the best way to do it

The tiler could argue that in court, and in my view stand a good chance of winning.

He's probably taken a line across the doorway and used his fabled laser to lay out a perpendicular, such that the grout lines are 'straight' in front of you as you walk through the door.

Is that the 'correct' way to do it?  We could all argue the toss till the cows come home, but could Jack find a law, or legal precedent, or an expert witness that would say unequivocally the tiler's method is 'wrong'?

There's lots to say that the tiles should align with the longer run of units, but is that being argued on the basis of Jack's sketch showing the front of the units more or less aligned with the left of the hallway door, and misses out that big lump of solid wall which means you'll never be looking along that plinth line square-on?

The thing which is square-on to the hallway door is the pair of grout-lines, as the tiler has laid them out.

Jack is understandably unhappy that all 4 edges are unaligned, but says he would be happy if it was only 3.  He needs to pause for a moment and consider what a judge would think about that position if shown pictures that show the job has been executed to a high standard overall.  Is it reasonable to argue about one grout-line when that alignment wasn't specifically requested.

There's other relevant information which has emerged today, but there's been enough 'discussion' with JC about that stuff already.

So I'm with Doozergirl and Jack's wife.  The job is not that bad, and will probably look better when the skirting and plinth has been finished.

IMV the best Jack can hope for is a discount on the labour. I'd ask nicely, and then not push it if the tiler is minded to go legal.

Because litigation is always risky.  Don't start it, and don't encourage it, even if you think you have a 100% chance of winning.

Totally agree and if it was critical to the OP that the tiles were parallel to the left hand side units as you enter the kitchen this should have been communicated to the tiles before work started.

S62 will know that this has been the essence of our discussion.

Jack, the customer, the layman, the homeowner, is supposedly meant to be aware that his walls are squint, and he should therefore be the one communicating his preferred layout to the professional tiler. Really?

Ladies and gentlemen, how many of you know how off-square your rooms are? And, if you were having your kitchen floor covered, how many of you would carry out all the necessary measurements beforehand so that you could communicate your preferences to the tradesperson to take in any anomaly?

Not me. And this was the case when we had laminate flooring put down in a couple of rooms recently. One of these rooms has 6 sides - it tapers slightly, and purposely, towards one end. Did I check the angles to see they were symmetrical? Nope. Did I measure the length of any wall? Nope.

What did I do? I told the recommended professional which direction I preferred the boards to lay, and let him get on with his work. And lovely it is.

What would I have expected had he discovered an anomaly? Well, he did - a raised area towards one end of the room. And he did the right thing - he pointed it out to me and we discussed options, one of which we both agreed was best.

IF this guy had laid the flooring 'squint' or IF this guy had left my floor wobbling over that peak, then I'd have spoken to him nicely but firmly about sorting it. But, of course, he didn't. Why? Because he was a professional, and didn't make any mistakes.

Had it gone wrong, not for one second would I have considered this my responsibility in any way.

People, based on the measurements and pictures Jack has shown us, how many of you would have laid out the tiling as this tiler did? And how many of you would have laid them out as Jack considers is the better way?

Yes, me too.

I am not at all comfortable with the insinuation that the customer - Jack in this case - has some responsibility for this professional's error/poor decision.

Has anyone on here suggested that the tiler should have discussed the options with Jack, and not the other way around? And isn't the very first thing this guy would have done is to measure up the room accurately, whereupon he would have realised that it wasn't square, and would then have asked to speak to his customer to discuss the options?

I totally get it isn't completely 'open and shut', and litigation can go in some weird ways so is a risk unless watertight. But, jeepers.

But you admit other than setting out there's nothing wrong with the work?  The only issue is that it's not set out in the way the OP wanted. Maybe this should have been communicated before work started. So yes the OP does have some responsibility.

Jeepers_Creepers

DB1904 said:

But you admit other than setting out there's nothing wrong with the work?  The only issue is that it's not set out in the way the OP wanted. Maybe this should have been communicated before work started. So yes the OP does have some responsibility.

'Admit'? Acknowledge, yes - I've always said the job looks otherwise really nice.

The only issue is that the tiler made an error - one that even I, a DIYer, would not have done.

Just like I didn't check the squareness of my rooms for the flooring guy, and did not say to him "Could you lay the boards as straight and parallel as possible, please? You know, just in case you were contemplating a jaunty angle."

Jack should not have had to communicate anything to this guy regarding the alignment of the layout. For him to have done so would imply (a) that he should somehow have known that the room was not square (he might have known, he might not. The point is, as a layman he didn't have to know and shouldn't be expected to know), and (b) that the pro tiler isn't. A pro. Or to be trusted with an essential level of competence.

I personally suspect that this tiler is generally competent and professional, and almost always makes a cracking job. I suspect that in this case he just made an error. He presumed too much about the room's squareness. He used the hallway as his starting point, set up his laser, was hypnotised by the shimmering beam, and laid the first tile. At some point soon after he likely went B****R! 

Doozergirl

Jeepers, you are lovely, but I have never seen you err from a path that belonged to  anyone but the OP in any thread.  

You're clearly an empath, and it always goes down well with the OP, but the line that everyone else is taking on this thread now is one of compromise.  

Your expectations are too high.  I am
a national award winning 'builder' and, as a result, now a regional president in the federation of master builders.  I do not have a trade, I have a standard.  I am
client more than I am contractor.  I know cowboy builders and cowboy clients and despise both.   There is more of one than the other, and the answer isn't what you'd expect.     

I do not expect either my client or tradesperson to share the same idea of perfection.   Even really good tradespeople
will do apparently random things, but if a client/pm cannot, does not or will not express an exact wish or check progress, yes, they do hold responsibility.  My belief is that they both probably went 'B****r' at around the same time.  

This is only an argument because it's a tight call even with hindsight. That means it isn't black and white.   The line of those units was never marked on the floor until s62 gave instruction to the OP.  That happened today.  A DIYer *would* have made a mistake like that.  Straight away.  I'd dare any DIYer to stand in front of the jobs that my tiler does (relying on my design for him) and even call a comparison.  

If you are detail orientated, you deal in detail before, not after.  Many tilers lay a great tile, but they don't deal in design.  What I see is a good lay with a disproportionately disappointing result. 

I anticipate the day when you post considering that there may be another side to a story than the OPs, or even a grey area...

benson1980

Doozergirl said:

Jeepers, you are lovely, but I have never seen you err from a path that belonged to  anyone but the OP in any thread.  

You're clearly an empath, and it always goes down well with the OP, but the line that everyone else is taking on this thread now is one of compromise.  

Your expectations are too high.  I am
a national award winning 'builder' and, as a result, now a regional president in the federation of master builders.  I do not have a trade, I have a standard.  I am
client more than I am contractor.  I know cowboy builders and cowboy clients and despise both.   There is more of one than the other, and the answer isn't what you'd expect.     

I do not expect either my client or tradesperson to share the same idea of perfection.   Even really good tradespeople
will do apparently random things, but if a client/pm cannot, does not or will not express an exact wish or check progress, yes, they do hold responsibility.  My belief is that they both probably went 'B****r' at around the same time.  

This is only an argument because it's a tight call even with hindsight. That means it isn't black and white.   The line of those units was never marked on the floor until s62 gave instruction to the OP.  That happened today.  A DIYer *would* have made a mistake like that.  Straight away.  I'd dare any DIYer to stand in front of the jobs that my tiler does (relying on my design for him) and even call a comparison.  

If you are detail orientated, you deal in detail before, not after.  Many tilers lay a great tile, but they don't deal in design.  What I see is a good lay with a disproportionately disappointing result. 

I anticipate the day when you post considering that there may be another side to a story than the OPs, or even a grey area...

I'm with JC- I wouldn't compromise and I agree if there's different ways of setting them out my expectation as a client would be that this was communicated. If the tradesperson cracks on, and even worse sets them out so they are not straight with the lines in the kitchen that pretty much everyone would expect them to, for me they do so at their own peril.

It's useful to have a wide range of perspectives, including from extremely knowledgeable people on here...I don't have this knowledge other than to say that following the B and Q diy youtube guide has afforded me the ability to do a better job. The other elements of the job are ok, but we're pretty much discussing tile spacing and grouting, laying flat, and cutting tiles to size- all basic tiling requirements.

What we have done is a number of house renovations and learnt the hard way on occasion. The reason this thread has gone on for so many pages is that there is a far more fundamental issue at play here in terms of how we as clients need to work with tradespeople- which has certainly made me even more cautious if learned colleagues on here all tell us that a job like this is partly the clients fault, which I have to respect albeit still don't agree with i.e. perhaps some of our expectations are too high.