Tiling Job - Tiles not straight

Jeepers_Creepers

Doozergirl said:

Jeepers, you are lovely, but I have never seen you err from a path that belonged to  anyone but the OP in any thread.  

You're clearly an empath, and it always goes down well with the OP, but the line that everyone else is taking on this thread now is one of compromise.  

Your expectations are too high.  I am
a national award winning 'builder' and, as a result, now a regional president in the federation of master builders.  I do not have a trade, I have a standard.  I am
client more than I am contractor.  I know cowboy builders and cowboy clients and despise both.   There is more of one than the other, and the answer isn't what you'd expect.     

I do not expect either my client or tradesperson to share the same idea of perfection.   Even really good tradespeople
will do apparently random things, but if a client/pm cannot, does not or will not express an exact wish or check progress, yes, they do hold responsibility.  My belief is that they both probably went 'B****r' at around the same time.  

This is only an argument because it's a tight call even with hindsight. That means it isn't black and white.   The line of those units was never marked on the floor until s62 gave instruction to the OP.  That happened today.  A DIYer *would* have made a mistake like that.  Straight away.  I'd dare any DIYer to stand in front of the jobs that my tiler does (relying on my design for him) and even call a comparison.  

If you are detail orientated, you deal in detail before, not after.  Many tilers lay a great tile, but they don't deal in design.  What I see is a good lay with a disproportionately disappointing result. 

I anticipate the day when you post considering that there may be another side to a story than the OPs, or even a grey area...

Oh you sweet-talker, you. Please don't stop :-)

(I started reading this thread thinking that Jack was a bit OCD - a fusspot. When he posted the dimensions, photos and sketch, I did a 180o U-turn. It was based on the evidence, and not because I may be an empath.)

Doozer, honestly, I do get what most folk are saying, and I know this is almost certainly going to have to be a compromise by Jack, simply because to redo the job would be such a major task.

But...but...but... It's not because I'm an empath (thanks :-) ), but because I can only conclude the tiler made a mistake. There was a very obvious way - as far as I can see - to lay these tiles, and for some reason he didn't go for this. It was a schoolboy error.

The base units were in place - he had them to go by. He will clearly have had all the measuring equipment he'd need to measure up every aspect of that room; nothing in there should have been a mystery. And - here's the crutch - there should have been one very obvious conclusion from this, one layout that would have almost completely removed the noticeable lack of parallels.

And the main compromise would/should have been on that nearest wall to the hallway, where it would least be noticed.

That's the crux of this issue. Did the tiler really use his best judgement, or did the tiler make a mistake with significant consequences. I can only conclude it's the latter. I might, of course, be wrong here, but nothing else makes sense.

Doozer, if you had received this complaint from a customer, and when you went out to have a look, the customer pointed out - correctly - a far better and more obvious layout, what would you say to your tiler? I suspect it would be, "Jeez, man, what were you thinking off?! And didn't you point out the squint walls and talk the options through with the customer?!"

Because that's the other issue on this thread - Jack has been tackled for not pointing out how he wanted the tiles laid out in advance (as if he should have known there would be an issue) wheras no-one (I don't think) has suggested that the pro should have communicated with Jack.

I find this a bit weird.

DB1904

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Doozergirl said:

Jeepers, you are lovely, but I have never seen you err from a path that belonged to  anyone but the OP in any thread.  

You're clearly an empath, and it always goes down well with the OP, but the line that everyone else is taking on this thread now is one of compromise.  

Your expectations are too high.  I am
a national award winning 'builder' and, as a result, now a regional president in the federation of master builders.  I do not have a trade, I have a standard.  I am
client more than I am contractor.  I know cowboy builders and cowboy clients and despise both.   There is more of one than the other, and the answer isn't what you'd expect.     

I do not expect either my client or tradesperson to share the same idea of perfection.   Even really good tradespeople
will do apparently random things, but if a client/pm cannot, does not or will not express an exact wish or check progress, yes, they do hold responsibility.  My belief is that they both probably went 'B****r' at around the same time.  

This is only an argument because it's a tight call even with hindsight. That means it isn't black and white.   The line of those units was never marked on the floor until s62 gave instruction to the OP.  That happened today.  A DIYer *would* have made a mistake like that.  Straight away.  I'd dare any DIYer to stand in front of the jobs that my tiler does (relying on my design for him) and even call a comparison.  

If you are detail orientated, you deal in detail before, not after.  Many tilers lay a great tile, but they don't deal in design.  What I see is a good lay with a disproportionately disappointing result. 

I anticipate the day when you post considering that there may be another side to a story than the OPs, or even a grey area...

Oh you sweet-talker, you. Please don't stop :-)

(I started reading this thread thinking that Jack was a bit OCD - a fusspot. When he posted the dimensions, photos and sketch, I did a 180o U-turn. It was based on the evidence, and not because I may be an empath.)

Doozer, honestly, I do get what most folk are saying, and I know this is almost certainly going to have to be a compromise by Jack, simply because to redo the job would be such a major task.

But...but...but... It's not because I'm an empath (thanks :-) ), but because I can only conclude the tiler made a mistake. There was a very obvious way - as far as I can see - to lay these tiles, and for some reason he didn't go for this. It was a schoolboy error.

The base units were in place - he had them to go by. He will clearly have had all the measuring equipment he'd need to measure up every aspect of that room; nothing in there should have been a mystery. And - here's the crutch - there should have been one very obvious conclusion from this, one layout that would have almost completely removed the noticeable lack of parallels.

And the main compromise would/should have been on that nearest wall to the hallway, where it would least be noticed.

That's the crux of this issue. Did the tiler really use his best judgement, or did the tiler make a mistake with significant consequences. I can only conclude it's the latter. I might, of course, be wrong here, but nothing else makes sense.

Doozer, if you had received this complaint from a customer, and when you went out to have a look, the customer pointed out - correctly - a far better and more obvious layout, what would you say to your tiler? I suspect it would be, "Jeez, man, what were you thinking off?! And didn't you point out the squint walls and talk the options through with the customer?!"

Because that's the other issue on this thread - Jack has been tackled for not pointing out how he wanted the tiles laid out in advance (as if he should have known there would be an issue) wheras no-one (I don't think) has suggested that the pro should have communicated with Jack.

I find this a bit weird.

The obvious reason is the OP didn't tell him. That simple conversation before he started would have avoided the problem.

Jeepers_Creepers

benson1980 said:

I agree if there's different ways of setting them out my expectation as a client would be that this was communicated. If the tradesperson cracks on, and even worse sets them out so they are not straight with the lines in the kitchen that pretty much everyone would expect them to, for me they do so at their own peril.

The reason this thread has gone on for so many pages is that there is a far more fundamental issue at play here in terms of how we as clients need to work with tradespeople- which has certainly made me even more cautious if learned colleagues on here all tell us that a job like this is partly the clients fault, which I have to respect albeit still don't agree with i.e. perhaps some of our expectations are too high.

A very succinct summation imo, thank you.

Coupled with the almost certain likelihood that the tiler just made a MISTAKE!

DB1904

Jeepers_Creepers said:

benson1980 said:

I agree if there's different ways of setting them out my expectation as a client would be that this was communicated. If the tradesperson cracks on, and even worse sets them out so they are not straight with the lines in the kitchen that pretty much everyone would expect them to, for me they do so at their own peril.

The reason this thread has gone on for so many pages is that there is a far more fundamental issue at play here in terms of how we as clients need to work with tradespeople- which has certainly made me even more cautious if learned colleagues on here all tell us that a job like this is partly the clients fault, which I have to respect albeit still don't agree with i.e. perhaps some of our expectations are too high.

A very succinct summation imo, thank you.

Coupled with the almost certain likelihood that the tiler just made a MISTAKE!

A clearly avoidable mistake at that. 

Jeepers_Creepers

To labour the point even more, Doozer, this is how my 'grey area/other side' consideration panned out, after me asking Jack a few times for actual dimensions:

"We need an answer to this! (a) Is my summation above correct? (Ie, the corner is >90o, so one or both grout lines just cannot line up. And to line up one would mean it's worse for the other.) And, (b) how on earth did the first tiler get over this issue?!

If the answer to Q (a) is 'Yes' - the two walls, and hence the kitchen base units, splay as they go out from that corner, so there's no way to line up both sets of grout lines, so the tiler did what he thought was best - split the difference, then my gut says to accept what he's done, in good faith, as being the best solution, and accept that - in practice, especially with a table in there - you'll stop noticing it.

If the answer to Q (b) is the original tiler worked out that by keeping the tiles parallel to the LH wall also meant the grout line would fit the bay recess wall just as neatly, so only the end wall would be 'out', but no-one notices this, then your new tiler has boobed. Ie, that LH corner does not splay both ways, but the LH wall is actually parallel with the RH wall, and only the end wall is 'off'.

Tough call either way. The tiler should ideally have explained and discussed both options to you. Will tradesfolk ever learn that 'comms' is everything?"

Two options on page 2 of this thread. That was before Jack presented the full 'evidence'. After he did, I have to say I see it as the tiler's error, and the tiler's lack of communication. I see no fault on Jack at all.

But I do realise that if it were to go to litigation, nothing is that clear.

The worst outcome - Jack will almost certainly have to live with it. I hope he can take a chill-pill.

DB1904

@Jeepers_Creepers there's was a lack of communication on both sides. 

Jeepers_Creepers

DB1904 said:

@Jeepers_Creepers there's was a lack of communication on both sides. 

What should Jack have said to the tiler, and why?

What should the tiler have said to Jack, and why?

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

(I started reading this thread thinking that Jack was a bit OCD - a fusspot. When he posted the dimensions, photos and sketch, I did a 180o U-turn. It was based on the evidence, and not because I may be an empath.)

I noticed that, which is why I implored you to think more carefully.  The problem was the evidence you were using (Jack's sketch) is misleading. [Not a criticism of Jack]

The sketch is distorted in scale and orientation - nothing wrong with that if you are trying to convey a point - but it doesn't include vital bits of information which would make it 'evidence'.  You cannot draw the conclusions you have done from that sketch, it simply isn't possible.

Jack's new sketches are also misleading and still contain some of the same fundamental mistakes. [Again, not a criticism of Jack].  Jack is not an engineer or surveyor, or draughtsman, so cannot be expected to produce accurate scaled drawings.

But it does mean that your 180o was (and still is) based on duff evidence. [not making a 'point', but trying to explain where you have gone wrong]

Jeepers_Creepers said:

But...but...but... It's not because I'm an empath (thanks :-) ), but because I can only conclude the tiler made a mistake. There was a very obvious way - as far as I can see - to lay these tiles, and for some reason he didn't go for this. It was a schoolboy error.

Take another look at stuart45's greenhouse picture.  You could conclude that stuart45 made a mistake. A 'schoolboy error'.

If I understood stuart45's point correctly, he was saying there's two sides to a story. If you don't have the other side then it is easy to draw the wrong conclusion.

If this thread had been about stuart45's greenhouse "error" I'd have been doing exactly the same thing as I have been - pointing out that the blockwork was all laid level, the joints were even, the pointing neatly done, and overall looking like a very good job.  I'd be saying that we need to think about the inconsistency between everything looking good, apart from one issue, and the theory stuart45 had made a "schoolboy error". It doesn't make sense.  It fails the 'sanity' test.  We need stuart45's side of the story.

Exactly the same applies to this tiling.  The only difference is that unlike stuart45, the tiler isn't on this forum to explain why he made the decision he did.  If he was, I think there's a very good chance you'd agree with him.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Did the tiler really use his best judgement, or did the tiler make a mistake with significant consequences. I can only conclude it's the latter. I might, of course, be wrong here, but nothing else makes sense.

The tiles have apparently been aligned so they are perpendicular to the threshold of the hallway door.  In the circumstances it makes perfect sense, even if it doesn't match the expectations of the client (and majority? on here).

If the tiles had been laid aligned to the units then other clients might complain that when standing in the doorway there was a 'squint' on them.  We are dealing with personal preferences and perceptions here, not black and white facts.  There cannot be a single 'correct' opinion.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Because that's the other issue on this thread - Jack has been tackled for not pointing out how he wanted the tiles laid out in advance (as if he should have known there would be an issue) wheras no-one (I don't think) has suggested that the pro should have communicated with Jack.

I find this a bit weird.

Jack hasn't "been tackled".

It has been pointed out that if the client doesn't specify something then they are leaving it up to the professional to make the decision using their experience and judgement.

This matters - it isn't argument for the sake of having an argument - because if Jack goes 'legal' the court will decide liability based on whether or not the tiler did a professional job (in the round), rather than whether or not the tiler met the client's alignment specification.

Leaving something up to a professional's judgement is an entirely legitimate approach - but there are consequences of doing so.

One of which is having limited scope for complaint if they don't do what you thought they would.

koalakoala

Very well put. I don't think a court would find in his favour, but who knows.
The biggest mistake was not looking in on the tiler after he started, being only ten minutes away.

stuart45

I had to build a square brick planter for a couple in their back garden. The garden wall was out of square to the house wall, so I told them that they could have it 1 square to the house wall, and out to the garden wall
2 Square to the garden wall, out to the house
3 split the difference and have both sides out
4 build the planter out of square so both walls were equal distance.
5 Build the garden wall side of the planter with acute and obtuse angles to match the wall.
They said they couldn't really picture it in their heads, would leave it to me and would only really know when it was built.
I then said I could rotate it as a diamond to the walls and they went with that in the end. Usually when the customer has the final say in the design they like it because it was their idea. Doesn't matter if no one else likes it.
Another job I was repointing a house. I suggested black mortar as it was weather struck and cut. I'd done a couple of sq yards and the lady of the house said Oh No I don't like that colour. 
I told her that both her and her husband had agreed on black. She replied that she didn't realize it would be that black. I told her that black mortar lightens up to a grey over time. She came back a hour later and said it's a pity it lightens as she really likes the black now she's got used to it. 
Luckily her husband was really happy with the probable finished colour.