Tiling Job - Tiles not straight

Jeepers_Creepers

Section62 said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

(By 'correctly', I mean noticing that the first row was not dead parallel to the walls.)

Eh?  You wanted them laid parallel to the walls?  I thought you said parallel to the units.  Although earlier on I'm sure you mentioned that spitting the difference would be right.  So then Guv'nor, which wall did you want them parallel to, as none of the walls in your kitchen are dead parallel to each other.


....which is why stuart45 and Doozergirl's comments about communications and supervision are spot on, especially when you are letting a stranger loose on your home and hundreds of pounds worth of building materials.

It also makes going to court a bit risky... unless you specified exactly how you wanted the tiles aligned.

Units, walls - such pedantry.

And, yes, I did say that any lack of squareness would usually be split, in proportion to the most visual aspect. You know this. It's correct. And yet you try and make a 'point' with it.

Since then, however, the OP has confirmed that there isn't any obvious out-of-squareness - this tiler laid the tiles out at the same wrong tilt to all 4 walls! And, yes, you know this too. But ditto.

And this was reinforced by the fact that the original tiler had his grout lines running parallel (note that word) to both side walls. And this you also know. But ditto.

Which is why stuart's and Doozer's comments are irrelevant to what you are saying above. What comes across as a pedantic attempt at point-scoring.

I repeat - is it the customer's responsibility at all to 'observe' and 'communicate' that the tiler has/has not laid out even their first row perfectly correctly?

Is it?

Cool. Of course not.

Mind you, you - yourself - seem to have implied it was the customer's responsibility in your reply to Benson; "Only the tiler knows if that is what happened.  But if it is then it is one of those classic examples of very simple errors with disproportionately serious outcomes... the kind of thing that a second person would hopefully spot soon after the error was made. There's also no need to 'intrusively supervise'. An occasional look-in when critical stuff is happening is often all it takes." Who is this 'second person'? Clearly you are referring to the customer, because only a customer, and not a tiler's assistant, wouldn't have to worry about 'intrusively supervising'.

But, you know all this too.

All the double-and-triple-checking should be done by the tiler, and/or their assistant. They get that wrong - it's their fault, 100%.

Some customers take an interest - that's cool - and might even notice an issue - that's super-cool. It ain't their responsibility, tho'.

It's a completely different matter if the customer is needed to discuss a chosen layout beforehand. Or if the tiler has to work with an out-of-square room and talks through the options with the customer. The customer then does have some liability for the chosen solution. It isn't for Jack to check his room measurements and corner angles beforehand so that he can then inform - and check up on - his tiler.

Doozergirl

No one has said it's the OPs fault.        No one has said that the OP needed to lay out the room square. 

Is it reasonable to think that the OP might now be thinking 'I wish I'd looked earlier?' or do we think that they're more satisfied that it's got to where it is - finished and disappointing?  

We are saying not to assume that everything is going exactly the way you want it.  It doesn't even matter whose fault it is.  If the OP had dictated something themselves and it looked rubbish after the first 5 tiles, there's an opportunity to change their mind as well.   

There's nothing to argue about.  

We're doing our garden at the moment and my husband is incapable of interpreting what I want.  He will go out and contradict things we've already discussed together and agreed with the subbies!   I have to check on it, not because the subbie is no good, but because my husband can't interpret my vision and shouldn't bother trying if he wants an easy life.  He doesn't take that option though - you'd think he'd learn after 24 years 😬

stuart45

That's men for you. I build something exactly as my wife has told me to build, but should have realized that when it's finished it won't be what she really wanted as I should have known to start with.
When I built her an Inglenook fireplace years ago before the net, she cut out loads of pictures of them from mags. 
Eventually she found one she liked. I built it exactly as the photo, but after a week she told me that the beam should have been proud of the wall for plates to sit on. I should have known this as a builder. 
As you say us men never learn.

Jeepers_Creepers

Doozergirl said:

No one has said it's the OPs fault.        No one has said that the OP needed to lay out the room square. 

Is it reasonable to think that the OP might now be thinking 'I wish I'd looked earlier?' or do we think that they're more satisfied that it's got to where it is - finished and disappointing?  

We are saying not to assume that everything is going exactly the way you want it.  It doesn't even matter whose fault it is.  If the OP had dictated something themselves and it looked rubbish after the first 5 tiles, there's an opportunity to change their mind as well.   

There's nothing to argue about.  

We're doing our garden at the moment and my husband is incapable of interpreting what I want.  He will go out and contradict things we've already discussed together and agreed with the subbies!   I have to check on it, not because the subbie is no good, but because my husband can't interpret my vision and shouldn't bother trying if he wants an easy life.  He doesn't take that option though - you'd think he'd learn after 24 years 😬

Oi! Don't you come on here taking out your frustration at yer 'ubby on other folk :-)

Ok, you can if you like.

I totally agree, Doozer - totally.

There was just a sense in a number of posts, an implication, of some liability/responsibility on the shoulders of the customer here.

But mainly I just needed to put S62 back in his box.

Eldi_Dos

@Jack-Bauer, Hi I think the best course to follow here is the one favoured by your wife in the first post and the suggestion to offset the plinths seems a good one to me.Once your fridge and dining table are in it looks like it will be a lovely kitchen, and once the new arrival comes you will have plenty of opportunity to use whatever discount you agree.

Doozergirl

stuart45 said:

That's men for you. I build something exactly as my wife has told me to build, but should have realized that when it's finished it won't be what she really wanted as I should have known to start with.
When I built her an Inglenook fireplace years ago before the net, she cut out loads of pictures of them from mags. 
Eventually she found one she liked. I built it exactly as the photo, but after a week she told me that the beam should have been proud of the wall for plates to sit on. I should have known this as a builder. 
As you say us men never learn.

You're a terrible husband! 

(The bricklayer is back putting two extra courses on the wall today because I misjudged the levels ☺️.)

travis-powers

Doozergirl said:

stuart45 said:

That's men for you. I build something exactly as my wife has told me to build, but should have realized that when it's finished it won't be what she really wanted as I should have known to start with.
When I built her an Inglenook fireplace years ago before the net, she cut out loads of pictures of them from mags. 
Eventually she found one she liked. I built it exactly as the photo, but after a week she told me that the beam should have been proud of the wall for plates to sit on. I should have known this as a builder. 
As you say us men never learn.

You're a terrible husband! 

We all are!
This is why I always deal with the female of the household!

ComicGeek

travis-powers said:

Doozergirl said:

stuart45 said:

That's men for you. I build something exactly as my wife has told me to build, but should have realized that when it's finished it won't be what she really wanted as I should have known to start with.
When I built her an Inglenook fireplace years ago before the net, she cut out loads of pictures of them from mags. 
Eventually she found one she liked. I built it exactly as the photo, but after a week she told me that the beam should have been proud of the wall for plates to sit on. I should have known this as a builder. 
As you say us men never learn.

You're a terrible husband! 

We all are!
This is why I always deal with the female of the household!

I made the mistake of making a couple of decisions on my own during our recent works - my mistake for misinterpreting 'I'm not worried about that, will leave it up to you'.

I'm now redoing all of those to reflect the decisions that I should have made.... To be fair, she is right!

Rosa_Damascena

ComicGeek said:

travis-powers said:

Doozergirl said:

stuart45 said:

That's men for you. I build something exactly as my wife has told me to build, but should have realized that when it's finished it won't be what she really wanted as I should have known to start with.
When I built her an Inglenook fireplace years ago before the net, she cut out loads of pictures of them from mags. 
Eventually she found one she liked. I built it exactly as the photo, but after a week she told me that the beam should have been proud of the wall for plates to sit on. I should have known this as a builder. 
As you say us men never learn.

You're a terrible husband! 

We all are!
This is why I always deal with the female of the household!

I made the mistake of making a couple of decisions on my own during our recent works - my mistake for misinterpreting 'I'm not worried about that, will leave it up to you'.

I'm now redoing all of those to reflect the decisions that I should have made.... To be fair, she is right!

Tell me about it. I've been accused of neglecting the cosmetic details which is fair but I'm more concerned with the ergonomics. I'm not male but I don't have the bandwith for fripperies atm - have left it with others to waste their time on. If I choose in a hurry and its wrong I will hear about it for the next 2 decades 

Mum gets what she wants, I get a quiet life. Simples.

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Units, walls - such pedantry.

And, yes, I did say that any lack of squareness would usually be split, in proportion to the most visual aspect. You know this. It's correct. And yet you try and make a 'point' with it.

So in searching for a 'point', you've allowed the actual point to go whooshing over you.

The number of ways of laying tiles in a room is infinite. If you are the type of person who notices such things and you want the tiles to be aligned to a particular edge then you need to specify that, otherwise you are leaving it to the tiler to make that choice.

The 'point' I was making in that previous post is that just within this thread you (1 person) gave three different definitions of how the tiling would be "correct".  Multiply that by the number of people and you get an indication of just how much personal preference is involved in detailing - and the importance of being specific if you want it done a particular way. That's what stuart45's greenhouse client did, and it worked.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Since then, however, the OP has confirmed that there isn't any obvious out-of-squareness - this tiler laid the tiles out at the same wrong tilt to all 4 walls! And, yes, you know this too. But ditto.
 

No, I didn't know that.

For why, I'd suggest you go back to the OP's sketch and compare 440mm to 380+20mm (=400mm). (Hallway wall to cabinets)

And the absence of offsets from the garden wall and having no overall dimensions makes it impossible to say what the 'tilt' is along the other walls.  Rather than being 'pedantry', this is called 'attention to detail', which ironically is what the tiler stands accused of lacking.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

And this was reinforced by the fact that the original tiler had his grout lines running parallel (note that word) to both side walls. And this you also know. But ditto.

Yes, and that puzzled me.  But I didn't go jumping to conclusions that meant the walls were perfectly parallel. Perhaps the original tiler had expertise in the use of forced perspective, or some similar trick of the eye?

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Which is why stuart's and Doozer's comments are irrelevant to what you are saying above. What comes across as a pedantic attempt at point-scoring.

I repeat - is it the customer's responsibility at all to 'observe' and 'communicate' that the tiler has/has not laid out even their first row perfectly correctly?

Is it?

The comments made by stuart45 and Doozergirl's are apposite for the reasons given above.  In the absence of a specific instruction the trader will do the job in the way they think 'correct'.

If you want it done in a specific way you need to 'communicate' that and then 'observe' to make sure the job is going ahead in the way you wanted it.

Jeepers_Creepers said:

It's a completely different matter if the customer is needed to discuss a chosen layout beforehand. Or if the tiler has to work with an out-of-square room and talks through the options with the customer. The customer then does have some liability for the chosen solution. It isn't for Jack to check his room measurements and corner angles beforehand so that he can then inform - and check up on - his tiler.

The rest of your post, and this bit, has already been covered by Doozergirl.

The only 'argument' is you have convinced yourself the room was square, the OP's measurements (in at least one direction) suggest otherwise.


I'm completely with Doozergirl that it is better to deal with stuff before it becomes a problem, rather than deal with the consequences after.

So given you agree it is a 'completely different matter' if the room is out-of-square, maybe there's a need for you to go back to the measurements (before you do any more of the ad-hom stuff about pedantry)?

What the OP can do about it now depends on how unreasonable the tiler's decision making was in dealing with an out-of-square room, in the absence of a specific instruction.  That really is the beginning and end of it.