Tiling Job - Tiles not straight

benson1980

Section62 said:

benson1980 said:

...and the OPs situation, is that it isn’t a mistake. It’s just being lazy and not caring/taking the time to measure up or do the job properly. 

I'm interested in what makes you draw that conclusion.

None of us were there and saw how the tiler approached the job, and we don't know the logic he used.  Even the OP has been unable to get that information out of him.

But looking at the numbers the OP posted in that sketch there is a way of achieving the outcome by a simple error of adding 20mm rather than deducting 20mm (or vice versa) when making a setting out measurement.

Only the tiler knows if that is what happened.  But if it is then it is one of those classic examples of very simple errors with disproportionately serious outcomes... the kind of thing that a second person would hopefully spot soon after the error was made.

There's also no need to "intrusively supervise". An occasional look-in when critical stuff is happening is often all it takes.

Because it's not difficult to tile parallel to the most appropriate straight edge in a room. Just takes a bit of time to double check your measurements.

Section62

benson1980 said:

Because it's not difficult to tile parallel to the most appropriate straight edge in a room. Just takes a bit of time to double check your measurements.

Which doesn't make any difference if you've started with wrong assumptions, or fluffed your calculations.

You can use the most precise laser in the world, and check your measurements an infinite number of times, but that doesn't resolve more fundamental mistakes of the type that even the best and brightest make.

Methodological errors are some of the hardest for one person to trap - because exactly the same thinking that led to the error is likely to be used again in checking/fault finding.

This is one of the reasons why - for example - structural calculations should be checked by a second person.

stuart45

I built the base for a greenhouse for someone with blockwork and a stone face. He wanted a brick step, decided it had to follow the slope of the ground. I told him it would look wrong and also the door would need to be cut at an odd angle, but he insisted it's what he wanted. When finished I thought it looked really bad, but he was delighted with it.
My wife thought I was crazy to go along with it, as it looks bad on me, but nowadays I just do what they want, within reason.

Jeepers_Creepers

stuart45 said:

I built the base for a greenhouse for someone with blockwork and a stone face. He wanted a brick step, decided it had to follow the slope of the ground. I told him it would look wrong and also the door would need to be cut at an odd angle, but he insisted it's what he wanted. When finished I thought it looked really bad, but he was delighted with it.
My wife thought I was crazy to go along with it, as it looks bad on me, but nowadays I just do what they want, within reason.

That's just hilarious!

Jeepers_Creepers

gozaimasu said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

I'm guessing that no-one on here is actually suggesting that it's in any way Jack's responsibility to check that the tiler is laying out the tiles correctly? (By 'correctly', I mean noticing that the first row put down was not dead parallel to the walls.)

Phew.

Exactly! I would argue that it is isn't his responsibility to check, but other people here are. Forgive me for stating the obvious but I couldn't tell if you were having a go at me or not.

No, not at all!

It's absolutely fair enough that an interested - and knowledgable - customer takes an 'interest' in the work being carried out, and sometimes this will result in an "Um, is that meant to be like that?".

That's a totally different issue to a customer being expected to notice a fundamental error being carried out, as if this was part of the customer's responsibility. It ain't.

stuart45

Jeepers_Creepers said:

stuart45 said:

I built the base for a greenhouse for someone with blockwork and a stone face. He wanted a brick step, decided it had to follow the slope of the ground. I told him it would look wrong and also the door would need to be cut at an odd angle, but he insisted it's what he wanted. When finished I thought it looked really bad, but he was delighted with it.
My wife thought I was crazy to go along with it, as it looks bad on me, but nowadays I just do what they want, within reason.

That's just hilarious!

If the customer came on here complaining about that step, I think most people would say don't pay he clown. However sometimes you do need to hear both sides of the story.

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

(By 'correctly', I mean noticing that the first row was not dead parallel to the walls.)

Eh?  You wanted them laid parallel to the walls?  I thought you said parallel to the units.  Although earlier on I'm sure you mentioned that spitting the difference would be right.  So then Guv'nor, which wall did you want them parallel to, as none of the walls in your kitchen are dead parallel to each other.


....which is why stuart45 and Doozergirl's comments about communications and supervision are spot on, especially when you are letting a stranger loose on your home and hundreds of pounds worth of building materials.

It also makes going to court a bit risky... unless you specified exactly how you wanted the tiles aligned.

Doozergirl

I'm really not sure what people find so contentious about looking in at what is happening in your own house.  

I can't tell the OP what to do right now, because I, like most of the tradies on this board, haven't been in the position of disputes like that.  I can share an idea of what to do next time and I can give some food for thought for people who haven't yet gone through this. In fact, that's what I've been doing for a really long time on this board - trying to help people
get it right first time, not picking up the pieces afterwards.  

In a perfect world, we'd all be able to invite someone in and expect perfect work. We all know very well that it doesn't happen.  All I'm suggesting is that you check in to see that you're getting what you want, well before it's finished.  

There's one thing not paying someone for an entire job (that's pretty awkward in itself!), there's another suing them for the price of all the materials they didn't buy.   The contract covers labour only.  

I live this life every day.  I am both client and contractor.    I would not be happy with a tradesperson messing something up, but I'd find it a lot easier to swallow if I wasn't looking at an entirely grouted floor before I realised there was something wrong. 

There's nothing to argue with. People
are projecting something onto me that I haven't said, and anyone thinking the best position is to expect the best (and end up
dealing with the worst) is naive.  

NSG666

In fairness and on reflection Doozergirl, the fact that a 'professional' has made such a basic error supports your argument that it's worthwhile to check on progress even on a seemingly simple job. Your original comment struck a nerve as, rightly or wrongly, I read it that you were holding the client partly responsible and also, as a sensitive tradesperson, that you were implying this is what happens when you leave us to our own devices hence the 'dumb tiler' comment.

Mistakes can happen and the sooner they are picked up the better but if you read Jack's original post the tiler is denying any responsibility and trying to justify his actions with bullsh and blame him and this gives the rest of us tradespeople a bad image. If not before, as soon as he started to lay the cut tiles he would have know he'd cocked up but there is no indication that he consulted with the client to agree a solution early but every indication that he ploughed on and finished the job with a 'sod it, it'll do attitude'.

Jeepers_Creepers

NSG666 said:

In fairness and on reflection Doozergirl, the fact that a 'professional' has made such a basic error supports your argument that it's worthwhile to check on progress even on a seemingly simple job. Your original comment struck a nerve as, rightly or wrongly, I read it that you were holding the client partly responsible and also, as a sensitive tradesperson, that you were implying this is what happens when you leave us to our own devices hence the 'dumb tiler' comment.

Mistakes can happen and the sooner they are picked up the better but if you read Jack's original post the tiler is denying any responsibility and trying to justify his actions with bullsh and blame him and this gives the rest of us tradespeople a bad image. If not before, as soon as he started to lay the cut tiles he would have know he'd cocked up but there is no indication that he consulted with the client to agree a solution early but every indication that he ploughed on and finished the job with a 'sod it, it'll do attitude'.

That, to me, is the perfect summation.