Saying no to people

ben_m_g

As i asked, does your team get time and a half for their flexibility?
I suspect you are a poor manager, for a multitude of reasons. But the one i mentioned is not having cover arranged in advance. Relying on flexibility is hardly a sound business model.

Yes time and a half.

Cover in advance for sickness? Cover in advance for family emergencies? Cover in advance when the business will not approve any additional labour therefore having no one else available that is skilled to do the job?

I have three guys running three shifts, no floating man, no spare not approval for additional labour, no approval to train other staff to take over the role. I have taken this all the way up to the director until i was told that the matter was settled and i was not to return.

As below flexibility is one factor, and nothing to do with me.



Companies do not have to approve holiday if it is not convenient for them, OT is a great way to assure people can have the time off they want without impacting the business. - yes they do, each employee must have opportunity to use their annual leave. And if you want a demoralised work force, your method is a great way to achieve it. Obviously you'll get to the end of the year and your whole workforce will be off for 5 weeks, but hey, flexibility.
Also Holidays / annual leave, isnt the same as time off. Since time off is unpaid. But you knew that...

Just to clarify as it may not have been clear, employers have to give you your time off, but it can be up to them when you take it. Many engineering companys make employees take two full weeks off in august.

My guys do not only get overtime, but I log every time an employee assists in this way especially on short notice, I use this for their yearly evaluations. So you use employees personal time to scrutinise their work? Surely their evaluations are based on yearly goals - presumebly these goals arent, must do 'x' amount overtime. must swap / cover 'y' amount of shifts?

As per my previous post, no if an employee doesn't want to cover than that's fine and has no negative bearing on their review (so to speak). The annual review is set out something like this.

Flexibility:
1 shows not flexibility in his/her work, cannot learn new skills.
3 performs all the duties of the role, can be taught new skills as required but with resistance.
5 always willing to go above and beyond work, eager to learn and progress.

Obviously show up every day and do your job, that a '3' a 'good' rating. To excel you need to show massive willing and flexibility. How fair this is, i don't know, i am bound by the same review. I cannot change it, i just have to apply it. Even if i was very generous my ratings are reviewed by senior management and changed if so.


I will be factual here, this company is not a good place to work, I do not support many of the procedures in place nor is there anything i can do to change them. I personally am looking for another job. However many of the things listed here are common to engineering companies.

Guest101

ben_m_g wrote: »

As i asked, does your team get time and a half for their flexibility?
I suspect you are a poor manager, for a multitude of reasons. But the one i mentioned is not having cover arranged in advance. Relying on flexibility is hardly a sound business model.

Yes time and a half.

Cover in advance for sickness? Cover in advance for family emergencies? Cover in advance when the business will not approve any additional labour therefore having no one else available that is skilled to do the job?

I have three guys running three shifts, no floating man, no spare not approval for additional labour, no approval to train other staff to take over the role. I have taken this all the way up to the director until i was told that the matter was settled and i was not to return.

As below flexibility is one factor, and nothing to do with me.



Companies do not have to approve holiday if it is not convenient for them, OT is a great way to assure people can have the time off they want without impacting the business. - yes they do, each employee must have opportunity to use their annual leave. And if you want a demoralised work force, your method is a great way to achieve it. Obviously you'll get to the end of the year and your whole workforce will be off for 5 weeks, but hey, flexibility.
Also Holidays / annual leave, isnt the same as time off. Since time off is unpaid. But you knew that...

Just to clarify as it may not have been clear, employers have to give you your time off, but it can be up to them when you take it. Many engineering companys make employees take two full weeks off in august.

My guys do not only get overtime, but I log every time an employee assists in this way especially on short notice, I use this for their yearly evaluations. So you use employees personal time to scrutinise their work? Surely their evaluations are based on yearly goals - presumebly these goals arent, must do 'x' amount overtime. must swap / cover 'y' amount of shifts?

As per my previous post, no if an employee doesn't want to cover than that's fine and has no negative bearing on their review (so to speak). The annual review is set out something like this.

Flexibility:
1 shows not flexibility in his/her work, cannot learn new skills.
3 performs all the duties of the role, can be taught new skills as required but with resistance.
5 always willing to go above and beyond work, eager to learn and progress.

Obviously show up every day and do your job, that a '3' a 'good' rating. To excel you need to show massive willing and flexibility. How fair this is, i don't know, i am bound by the same review. I cannot change it, i just have to apply it. Even if i was very generous my ratings are reviewed by senior management and changed if so.


I will be factual here, this company is not a good place to work, I do not support many of the procedures in place nor is there anything i can do to change them. I personally am looking for another job. However many of the things listed here are common to engineering companies.

Ok you're not a poor manager. You're a manager in a poor position. The effect on your employees is the same.

I dont know why you started by defending your position. Clearly it's not good for anyone involved.

duchy

So a single parent would be penalized at review financially for not been able to do OT at short or no notice due to childcare issues. Good luck with that one in this day and age of litigation !

David301

FBaby wrote: »

That latest example to be is just showing an interest in that person's life. There are many lonely people around who no one cares about and lack anyone showing a bit of care.

I'm starting to wonder whether it is an introvert vs extrovert matter. I'm an extrovert and am genuinely interested in people ad a whole so when I ask questions is because I'm genuinely interested not because I intend to use the information one way or the other. Saying that if the response to 'so what are you doing' was 'nothing much' with lack of eye contact I certain wouldn't insist.

I think this is a valid point,

An introvert will always be offended by an extroverts "prying"

Whereas

An extrovert will always be offended by the introverts "rudeness"

probably best just to be a lone ranger and avoid problems!!

:beer:

FBaby

Flexibility is often more about willingness rather than actual shifts done. I was a single mum working full time with very limited childcare support beyond nursery. We did face times of work pressure when I was asked if there was any chance of doing overtime. My initial reaction was to say no as the effort required to find a solution was harrowing but I took the position that showing willingness would be worth the investment. When I could despite the stress if trying to arrange childcare I did extra hours.Indeed I came across as actually caring about the welfare of my employer and the flexibility was returned when my kids inevitably both caught chicken pox a week apart and my boss allowed me some paid time off and some working from home that certainly took away a lot of stress during that period. When it came to promotion time I got the job.

This not just about the manner of saying no but about the willingness to try to avoid saying so in a work related situation.

TBagpuss

David301 wrote: »

All these have been very interesting comments and the wide range of perspective has been very enlightening.

The points that do intrigue me the most have been the ones where people have stated that out of courtesy, and not wanting to affect relations with others that they would give a reason for not carrying out the asked request.

However if the reason was that you were looking forward to your day off because you just wanted to do absolutely nothing, or you didnt want to drive someone somewhere because you had planned to sit in your pyjamas that evening, then although being a valid reason, you would come across like a miser.

So in that instance you feel compelled to have to create a fictitious reason as to why, maybe before you get asked "why not".

Even if you have a good reason for not doing the favour, most of the time the asker will think that you are lying, because if you are a private person you wont discuss your appointments/personal activities, and then bad mouth you anyway.

So in conclusion through no fault of your own, if you are asked to do something, your relationship with the asker will have changed forever - you say yes you are annoyed that you have lost your time, annoyed down the line if you dont get the favour returned - or say no and they cast you out with whatever assumption they decide to make about you!

I disagree - I think there is middle ground between a flat 'no' and giving personal details. Vague answers like "No, I'm busy" or "No, I already have plans" or "No, I'm not available".

That kind of response doesn't need you to either lie or to go into details, but it gives a reason, so doesn't come across as quite so abrupt. And I think what a lot of us have been saying is that context matters a lot.
To go back to the shift question, your response might be different depending on whether Fred, who is asking you to cover his shift, is someone who you get on well with, who helps you when needed and is a reasonable person, or whether Fred is disorganised, forever asking for help but never available when you need anything from him.

In the first instance, you might choose to give an explanation, because it is reasonable in the context of your relationship with Fred to do so. You might also ask why he was asking, as this might change your answer

In the second, then your answer might be a quick "Sorry, can't help you"

And if the context is that you know Fred will nag, and will try to talk you out of whatever plans you have, then you might chose not to ask any questions or to give any information at all.

cr1mson

I just would say sorry I can't. Then remove myself physically from situation if I could!

It me it actually means sorry I can't be bothered but they don't need to know.

zagfles

coolcait wrote: »

So, you work with people day in and day out, see how much give and take goes on with them. Know a bit (or a lot) about their personal circumstances as a result of the daily chit chat which happens in most workplaces.


But you assess their 'willingness to help" based on whether or not they give you a reason for not being able to change a shift.

TBH it's never an issue. If I want a shift swapped, I will give the reason why. If others can't do it. they'll give a reason. Normal, polite, respectful behaviour. In the 15 odd years I've been doing a similar job it's never been a problem.

And you've only given an example of a 'reason' which you'd accept. What if it wasn't a 'reason' you found acceptable.

Then I'd use a similar reason if they want a favour off me. If it's "I simply CBA", then they'd get a similar reason if they ever needed a swap

Also, if you didn't get a 'reason' on that occasion, or any other occasions, you wouldn't be willing to help the other person out if they ever needed help. Even if you had seen them give and take in the past, and knew about their personal circumstances.

Never been an issue. I've never worked with anyone so paranoid, stubborn or selfish that they'd expect others to help them without the simple courtesy of giving a reason.

You and I have a very different world view.

Obviously.

If we worked together, I probably wouldn't ever ask you for a favour, as I would have got your measure over the insistence on giving a reason for not being able to cover a shift.

You'll probably find the same with the other 15 people I work with

Your entire post, for me, sums up why so many people feel browbeaten into giving a 'reason' for doing/not doing something - even though that 'reason' is no one else's business.

It's quite simple. Tell me "no" without giving me a reason, and I'll tell you "no" without giving you a reason.

zagfles

coolcait wrote: »

TBH, if someone is so insecure that they take a simple "No thanks" as meaning "x isn't really interested in doing stuff with me" etc, etc

Chances are that they'll take "sorry - not really interested in stamps" as meaning "x thinks an interest in stamps is a really boring and nerdy hobby, so they think I'm a really boring and nerdy person and [self-flagellation ad infinitum and ad nauseam]".

How self-centred does a person have to be, if they take every "sorry, no can do" as some kind of personal criticism?

You've missed the point completely.

If someone says "no" without giving a reason, how is the person asking supposed to act next time? What if they're going on another visit to the stamp museum? Do they ask again? And again? They don't know the reason you say no, ie not interested in stamps, rather than eg they were doing something else that day, so it can't affect their future behaviour, can it?

Unless they assume a reason. Which might of course be wrong.

zagfles

Guest101 wrote: »

The friends I have arent so fickle as to think so.

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of 'fickle';)

In fact i've not seen any of them in months. Since i rarely have time to socialise.

Maybe you should swap some shift so you can. Oh, hang on...

I needed a lift the other day, I phoned my friend (ive known him 11 years),

I said, 'are you about buddy, i need a lift to the next town over'.

That's a very strange way of putting things...but anyway...

He replied, 'Yes i'm about, but you've caught me just as i'm cooking tea, sorry no can do.'

If he'd just said, 'hey pal, sorry no can do'. - I wouldn't presume it's because he's offended for some reason. I'd presume he had other plans or didnt want to.

Err...but he's given you a reason which might help. For instance you might be willing to wait a couple of hours. If the reason had been his car's knackered, that wouldn't apply.

I feel secure enough that having not seen him in 2-3 months, i can drop him a call an ask for a lift, and as i plan to do, drop him a call in a week or 2 and go for a pint.

So whilst i dont have 22,000 'friends'. The ones I have arent going to be offended, nor offend me, if the answer is no thanks.

I'm not 13 and worried what everyone else thinks. I have far mor important things to consider.

There's a lot of 'whooshing' going on here. Hint - the issue isn't paranoia about what other people think. It's about providing them with information which might be useful about the situation. Not to mention common courtesy.

But do whatever works for you. You don't need to give anyone here a reason do you