Saying no to people

zagfles

coolcait wrote: »

Those are your thoughts and suppositions. Why should others have to share information just so that you, or others, don't allow their own imaginations and preconceptions to run away with them?

Because they might assume a reason you don't want them to, which might affect future interactions.

If I asked someone at work to swap shifts and they said no without giving a reason, I wouldn't ask why, I'd just accept it. But I know what my answer would be if they ever asked me to swap shifts.

On the other hand, if they gave a simple explaination, eg sorry arranged to go to my Mum's, it wouldn't change how I'd react if they ever asked me. Unless of course it happened every time!

If someone says, "I'm afraid I'm not available at that time", why do people feel it's acceptable to ask 'Why not?'

I'd agree with this. If they don't volunteer a reason there's no point pushing it.

But it will affect how I react if they ask me a favour. Giving a reason shows a willingness to help but with an explanation of the inability on this particular occasion.

Of course - you might not want to show willingness - that as above depends on the context.

zagfles

Guest101 wrote: »

And if that was the case i would elaborate my answer.

Lets assume they've suggested something i dont wish to do. regardless of who it is.

Theyve suggested a visit to the stamp museum. I have no interest in stamps. No thanks should suffice.

So what if they assume it's them you don't like, not the stamps? What if next time they are going to a football museum and you love football? They might think "Guest101's not really interested in doing stuff with me, I won't bother asking".

Because that's the likely conclusion. People are rarely honest enough to say "sorry I don't want to socialise with you", so a simple "no thanks" without a reason is likely to lead to the assumption the reason is something they are too cowardly to express, like "I don't like you".

Whereas a simple "sorry - not really interested in stamps" wouldn't cause that problem.

in the OPs original example. Do you want to cover fred's shift. No thanks. - should suffice.

It does, if you'll never need any of your shifts covering.

Do yu have a minute to talk about the bees (or whatever charity it is this week. No thanks. - should suffice.

It does, if you never want to interact with the chugger again.

Which is why I will treat the two situations above completely differently.

theoretica

What about asking why before saying yes/no? I do that sometimes if I could but don't want to.

Can you swap shifts so I have Friday off?
Why do you need to?
Doctors appointment - OK, I'll cancel my trip to the beach if you can't find anyone without plans
Cricket - sorry, I have a trip planned

coolcait

zagfles wrote: »

Because they might assume a reason you don't want them to, which might affect future interactions.

If I asked someone at work to swap shifts and they said no without giving a reason, I wouldn't ask why, I'd just accept it. But I know what my answer would be if they ever asked me to swap shifts.

On the other hand, if they gave a simple explaination, eg sorry arranged to go to my Mum's, it wouldn't change how I'd react if they ever asked me. Unless of course it happened every time!

I'd agree with this. If they don't volunteer a reason there's no point pushing it.

But it will affect how I react if they ask me a favour. Giving a reason shows a willingness to help but with an explanation of the inability on this particular occasion.

Of course - you might not want to show willingness - that as above depends on the context.

So, you work with people day in and day out, see how much give and take goes on with them. Know a bit (or a lot) about their personal circumstances as a result of the daily chit chat which happens in most workplaces.


But you assess their 'willingness to help" based on whether or not they give you a reason for not being able to change a shift.


And you've only given an example of a 'reason' which you'd accept. What if it wasn't a 'reason' you found acceptable.


Also, if you didn't get a 'reason' on that occasion, or any other occasions, you wouldn't be willing to help the other person out if they ever needed help. Even if you had seen them give and take in the past, and knew about their personal circumstances.


You and I have a very different world view.


If we worked together, I probably wouldn't ever ask you for a favour, as I would have got your measure over the insistence on giving a reason for not being able to cover a shift.


Your entire post, for me, sums up why so many people feel browbeaten into giving a 'reason' for doing/not doing something - even though that 'reason' is no one else's business.

coolcait

zagfles wrote: »

So what if they assume it's them you don't like, not the stamps? What if next time they are going to a football museum and you love football? They might think "Guest101's not really interested in doing stuff with me, I won't bother asking".

Because that's the likely conclusion. People are rarely honest enough to say "sorry I don't want to socialise with you", so a simple "no thanks" without a reason is likely to lead to the assumption the reason is something they are too cowardly to express, like "I don't like you".

Whereas a simple "sorry - not really interested in stamps" wouldn't cause that problem.

....

TBH, if someone is so insecure that they take a simple "No thanks" as meaning "x isn't really interested in doing stuff with me" etc, etc


Chances are that they'll take "sorry - not really interested in stamps" as meaning "x thinks an interest in stamps is a really boring and nerdy hobby, so they think I'm a really boring and nerdy person and [self-flagellation ad infinitum and ad nauseam]".


How self-centred does a person have to be, if they take every "sorry, no can do" as some kind of personal criticism?

mgdavid

coolcait wrote: »

TBH, if someone is so insecure that they take a simple "No thanks" as meaning "x isn't really interested in doing stuff with me" etc, etc


Chances are that they'll take "sorry - not really interested in stamps" as meaning "x thinks an interest in stamps is a really boring and nerdy hobby, so they think I'm a really boring and nerdy person and [self-flagellation ad infinitum and ad nauseam]".


How self-centred does a person have to be, if they take every "sorry, no can do" as some kind of personal criticism?

How self-centred does a person have to be to blankly say no and not consider both the context and future effects on the relationship? Most people are happy to provide reasons because they consider it to be good manners and polite.

coolcait

mgdavid wrote: »

How self-centred does a person have to be to blankly say no and not consider both the context and future effects on the relationship? Most people are happy to provide reasons because they consider it to be good manners and polite.

Q1. Can you cover my shift on Friday next week?


A. Sorry, I'm busy.


Q2. What are you up to?


A. Oh, family stuff.


Q3. Thing is, I really need Friday off because I promised the OH we'd go out. Any chance at all that you can help?


A. I wish I could help, but I'm afraid I can't.


Q4. Can't you change whatever you're doing? I really need next Friday off!


A. No, I'm afraid I can't. That's the day my dad's getting his operation; my mum's already up to high doh (and she's not so well herself), so I need to be there for them both. Plus, I want to be there because I'm pretty much up to high doh myself worrying about them both.


The reason for saying 'no' will be the same, no matter whether the conversation stops at Q1 or Q4.


How mannerly, or polite, is it to put someone in the position where they have to 'justify' not being able to do something? Especially if it means that they have to share personal information that they don't want to share at that point, or with that person.


What kind of person, having stopped at Q1, Q2 or Q3, makes assumptions about the reasons why the other person said 'No', and then makes judgements based on those assumptions?


If someone says 'Sorry, I can't', why not try taking that at face value, without demanding a 'reason', or trying to justify your (or others') personal need to be given a 'reason'?


On the other side of the coin, why worry if you lose a 'relationship' with someone who demands to know the 'reason' you can't do something?


Whether that's done as an overt demand. Or as the more usual passive aggressive manipulation of 'think about the future relationship'; 'what about the next time you need a favour' and the other variations which have already surfaced on this thread.

BarryBlue

Many years ago I was always being asked to do favours, usually involving giving people lifts because I've always owned a car from age 17. It was "Could you drop me in town?" or "Can I scrounge a lift home, it's not far out of your way?"

Most of the time I felt obliged to help out, even though most of the time people didn't even offer to chip in for fuel. I just didn't have it in me to refuse. Then one day I had a lightbulb moment. I needed transport somewhere when my car was off the road. Would anyone help? No chance!

After that I decided that I would learn to say "No" and a few people were in for a surprise. I had a few stock excuses for leaving them to get a taxi home, especially the ones who just assumed you would drop them off after a convoluted detour.

Nowadays I only ever do a favour of any sort if it is for someone who I would be confident would return the favour if necessary. I agreed last night to take some friends to the airport at 5am next month, but he would do the same for me, and has done.

FBaby

Ironically, I think we are agreeing on the principle, just from the opposite perspective!

How mannerly, or polite, is it to put someone in the position where they have to 'justify' not being able to do something?

I would return this and ask why anyone who is asked to elaborate on a reason to say no see it as 'justifying' themselves?

I am a stubborn person. If I say no, I mean no and I'm unlikely to be sway, but if people want to know my reason, I don't see it as justifying myself to them, I see it as given them perspective on my decision and if having an explanation makes them feel better, then I'm happy to give it.

My actions are much less about ME then about how they affect the people around me. I guess we are all different. From my perspective, someone who won't elaborate on their 'no' when I ask them a question is someone who can't be bothered about my feelings. This will almost systematically lead to me never asking them anything any longer and certainly not someone I would want to make an effort back to consider their own feelings. Happy to deal with such people in a 'you do your things I do mine'.

David301

All these have been very interesting comments and the wide range of perspective has been very enlightening.

The points that do intrigue me the most have been the ones where people have stated that out of courtesy, and not wanting to affect relations with others that they would give a reason for not carrying out the asked request.

However if the reason was that you were looking forward to your day off because you just wanted to do absolutely nothing, or you didnt want to drive someone somewhere because you had planned to sit in your pyjamas that evening, then although being a valid reason, you would come across like a miser.

So in that instance you feel compelled to have to create a fictitious reason as to why, maybe before you get asked "why not".

Even if you have a good reason for not doing the favour, most of the time the asker will think that you are lying, because if you are a private person you wont discuss your appointments/personal activities, and then bad mouth you anyway.

So in conclusion through no fault of your own, if you are asked to do something, your relationship with the asker will have changed forever - you say yes you are annoyed that you have lost your time, annoyed down the line if you dont get the favour returned - or say no and they cast you out with whatever assumption they decide to make about you!