Struggling and no one to turn to.

BigAunty

MoodyMel wrote: »

He more says 'why should he be stuck in with them' and insists that if I am going out he is going out and we need a babysitter, which we don't have. He does also play the guilt card on me and say that it is me that wanted the kids so I shouldn't expect to just swan off whenever I feel like.

I find it incredibly sad on your behalf, and pathetic on his, that when you make a very reasonable request to have some kind of parity with social plans that he enjoys, he sabotages it. I also think it is a shame that he has ground you down so much that you end up acquiescing.

It is also a shame that in those circumstances, they are just 'your' kids. If he wasn't suffering from mental illness, in no uncertain terms, he'd just be regarded as selfish, immature, bullying, jealous and insecure.

Thanks to those children, as he has barely earned a bean in a decade, it is his children (they aren't just his when he fancies) who trigger the benefits that put the roof over his head, food in his belly and pay for his indulgence on a Uni course and his spending sprees.

And it's not like you spontaneously spring social events on him or go out frequently. You give him ample notice for your rare social plans and you are generally stuck in the house for a 1,000 days for each time you try to have some 'me' time.

Yet he makes out that you are neglecting 'your kids'. A good father is respectful to their wife, encourages their education and career, supports their social life, puts food on the table from their physical labour by participating in the workforce. Yet you are the baddy?

I think it is admirable how you manage to separate the person from the illness, your patience and tolerance, but he's really taking the p*ss, though I appreciate his illness makes it hard to know if he would be this demonstrably poor as a father and husband if he was in full health.

BigAunty

MoodyMel wrote: »

He says he feel guilty about making me feel like thisFor example yesterday, when I saw him in the car coming my way, he said that he felt bad making me feel upset, however he went on to say he feels 10 times worse than I do. He always plays the 'i don't know what it's like' card. Although I tried to stress yesterday that he has absolutely no idea how I feel and what it is like to live with him.

Incredible. He suffers guilt for his atrocious behaviour, then makes you feel ashamed that you induced guilt in him. Then he insists that the misery that he causes to you (which sounds like it it taking you to breaking point) is barely 10% of the suffering that he endures?!

I have outlined the Constructive Living approach to curing anxiety which challenges the behaviour of the sufferer and makes them take full responsibility for their behaviour and insistence that they aspire to do everyday activities rather than give in to their 'feelings'.

There's another therapeutic approach, probably just as controversial called 'Transactional Analysis'. In this one, there is an interest in how people get engrained into performing certain roles, with routine themes.

Put simply, one acts like the adult or parent, while the other acts like a child and their behaviour reinforces this dynamic. Coupled with this, there is a theme such as 'Look at what you make me do!'.

In this outlook, it is his role to be child like and demonstrate how you make him suffer while you position yourself as the put upon adult, the rescuer, who is there to ease the suffering. It's another interesting stance for you to research, about how you fell into these well worn and fairly fixed roles.

He's not going to like either model, though, according to my very amateur knowledge of psychology. Sounds like he's into the Freudian side of things where he can insist childhood experiences are responsible for the way he acts now and that he isn't responsible for his behaviour while he isn't happy, and therefore only when he is fully happy, will his behaviour improve.

BigAunty

MoodyMel wrote: »

I told him about ERP, he says he will look into it. I also agree that he may never get better.

I do truly believe that he suffers a great deal of genuine mental distress.

However, I also believe that ultimately he has no incentive to get better. I get the impression from various places that some people enjoy the familiarity of their own suffering rather than have the courage to change, they get a fixed outlook that won't ever change.

He has quite a comfortable life, shaped almost entirely to his own needs, preferences and outlook, without any of the nuisances or ordinary domestic pressures that many households have, like boring jobs or paying bills.

His illness has turned the house into his sanctuary, a place to hide away from the world, and you into pretty much his only social contact. His primary identity is as a sick person. His illness makes him self absorbed.

What incentive is there for him to get better? He sees the world and the people in it as primarily wicked so he is shunning it. If he stops being sick, then what will he be? It's his main identity.

How does he transition to seeing his primary identity as a father, husband and employee? How does he go from a wife and a tiny circle of friends to a thriving social network. The world of work and having social interactions with strangers must be terrifying. Far better to stick in the house on the sofa.

MoodyMel wrote: »

With regards to seperating I have two plans. 1, I will just leave one day with the kids when he has gone out, once I have enough money. 2, I will make him leave the house by packing his bags and getting a police officer round to ensure he leaves.
I have a friend who's husband is a police officer in my town so I will contact her and arrange for her hubby to come round to assist.

I really don't want us to separate

The Womens Aid website has a section on how to prepare to leave, including steps that include shutting down joint financial ties, the types of documents to store ready for collection (like passports, birth certificates, benefit docs, etc). You will be at your most vulnerable at this stage, highly risky, and you must take your safety seriously.

Your plan to force him to leave won't work if he's a joint tenant. Unless you have an occupation order, he will automatically have the right to occupy the property. The Police are very poor at understanding tenancy rights. If he contacts the Police after you have kicked him out, they are actually obliged to let him back in the property. They should, however, support you if you are the sole tenant and ensure he leaves if he resists.

Contact Shelter to understand your rights and options.

BigAunty

The following thread may chime with you.

In it, a person suffering from long-term anxiety insists he has been victimised by posters on the thread despite masses of support and encouragement, constructive suggestions and praise. He insists that nobody understand the depth of his suffering and he is highly resistant to changing his attitude or behaviour - it is everyone and everything around him that causes his misery.

He feels rejected by every person and organisation he's ever been in contact with. He is furious at the suggestion that his thinking processes are compromised and feels that the forum members are insisting his problems are just in his head and are imaginary. He seems to make token efforts to recover but ultimately feels his illness is just too strong for the solutions that he's been offered.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5181895

In particular, you may admire the observations made by FBaby to the OP there.

"I have worked with people suffering from similar mental health problems as yours which included providing counselling. You are right that every one is different and indeed, some people did surprise me and did not progressed as I had envisioned one way or the other. However, they are some clear trends that professionals will recognise as pathological. One is that those who don't seem to ever get better are set into negative thinking. Whatever you suggest to help them is faced with a systematic no. It is as if their mind is automatically set to consider why any suggestion will not work. It is a normal and understanding protecting mechanism to avoid the feeling of self blame if efforts are not rewarded. The other common trend amongst those suffering from anxiety and depression who struggle to get better over years is the feeling that nobody understands them. In a way, this is probably correct however is not the feelings they are experiencing which are misunderstood, it is the lack of wanting to show any positivism with any possible solutions offered that is hard to understand.

The main issue that you are facing is that you don't believe anyone else can help you any longer, yet your entire life revolve around others making things happen to you, which means you are left with no control over your life living it in the hands of people who you don't trust. It is no surprise you feel hopeless. "

BigAunty

MoodyMel wrote: »

I was thinking of writing a letter to him and leaving it for him to read while I am at uni one day next week. explaining that we need help together and things HAVE to change or I am definitely leaving.

Good idea/bad idea? I don't know anymore!

As I have said on numerous occasions, you are at the highest risk and at your most vulnerable, when he knows that you are leaving. You have constantly attested to his non-physically abusive nature but your proposed action will result in a huge backlash of some kind, including (at the very least) massive emotional blackmail.

At the worst, it will result in your death - most women are murdered by their partners who generally have a history of controlling behaviour - it doesn't generally come out of the blue, but is the logical consequence of extreme control and the reaction to losing it when their partner has the temerity to become independent.

I'm not being dramatic - the chance of it happening is v. low but the consequence is high,(likelihood and impact) is just the nature of risk. Most women in the UK die at the hands of their partner, that's just a fact.

By sending that letter to him, you are alerting an already hyper- vigilant person that their bubble is being burst and they will be exposed to reality all of a sudden. He can't cope with you popping out to the shops!

If words have not worked, why would a letter? I would take expert professional advice on whether or not to give him that letter.

What you could do is draft a confidential one (password protected or stored away from the house) to get things off your chest, and articulate why the relationship isn't working, the consequences of his thoughts, attitude and behaviour on your life, outline the type of life you'd like to have, etc. Write it to him but not show him, just to help you come to terms with your life and help guide you towards decisions and actions?

And/Or write a letter for yourself, one to galvanise your courage and outline the reasons why the relationship will never work, providing inspiration for it by the maltreatment you have experienced and the type of future you want to have - one where you have freedom of travel, employment, socialising and where your time and effort can be spent on yourself and your children instead of 90% diverted to a single exhausting person. Then you can look at it when your morale is flagging or when he tries to change your mind.

And/or draft a letter for him after you have left, a positive and constructive one where you wish him well in his recovery, make clear his continuing central place as a father to his children, outline that you are able to distinguish between him and his illness and outline his admirable qualities but briefly outline that you want to live differently than before, hence the separation, all trying to take the sting out of the breakup. I don't know really, just putting ideas out there.

I like the suggestion of couples counselling - you get to outline the issues in the relationship, assisted by an intermediary, and he gets to respond. You will get an idea there if he has any capacity to change rather than setting him an ultimatum (which, at best, may result in him making a mild degree effort for a short period of time before going back to his usual behaviour).

It could be the case that he declines to cooperate or he makes a token effort. It could be hours upon hours of hearing him apologise for his behaviour while not changing an iota or it, or resisting taking any responsibility whatsever and blaming you and his illness, or making insincere acceptance while believing deep down, you make him the way he is. In which case, you will know you will need to head for the hills.

BigAunty

Or do you hope that by writing him a letter, he will ignore it as expected and this will galvanise you to leave? Meaning that you need this push?

Savvy_Sue

BigAunty wrote: »

" I encourage you to use what influence you have to fight against the trend that emphasizes emotions above all else. In this age many people believe that they must feel confident and comfortable before taking action. They believe that uncomfortable feelings must be erased
at all cost. They believe that feelings of distress must be conquered with medicine or meditation or diet or some other magical technique before life can be lived well. What is reasonable, right, or even aesthetic are subject to the single purpose of feeling good. When feelings take precedence over necessary behavior civilization is on its way downhill. Our current level of affluence was built and sustained by people doing well what needed to be done, feeling comfortable or not.

I don't know if this analogy will help, but it's worked for me. Feelings and facts are like two parts of a train: the carriages and the train.

Too many of us let our feelings be the 'train', and drag the facts along behind like carriages. I feel hopeless, so I must be worthless.

It is possible to make a conscious effort to recognise the facts. I feel hopeless, but I am not worthless: I matter to my husband, my children, my colleagues. I have done good things in my life, and even if that is not possible right now it is possible I will do good things again. These are the facts, and I will drag my feelings along behind them.

I find if I give more emphasis to the facts than the feelings, I can get along OK. If I give in to the feelings, life is very very dark.

paddy's_mum

BigAunty wrote: »

As I have said on numerous occasions, you are at the highest risk and at your most vulnerable, when he knows that you are leaving. You have constantly attested to his non-physically abusive nature but your proposed action will result in a huge backlash of some kind, including (at the very least) massive emotional blackmail.

At the worst, it will result in your death - most women are murdered by their partners who generally have a history of controlling behaviour - it doesn't generally come out of the blue, but is the logical consequence of extreme control and the reaction to losing it when their partner has the temerity to become independent.

you are alerting an already hyper- vigilant person that their bubble is being burst and they will be exposed to reality

Well said. This is my view, too and I said so 40-odd posts back.

I wonder if the OP has taken any action to find out about protecting herself from her husband's multi-faceted mistreatment and the possible consequences if she does attempt to take the children, her income and leave the family home?

BigAunty

paddy's_mum wrote: »

I wonder if the OP has taken any action to find out about protecting herself from her husband's multi-faceted mistreatment and the possible consequences if she does attempt to take the children, her income and leave the family home?

The OPs husband (definitely due to his illness, possibly due to his character/personality) operates a suffocating degree of control on virtually all aspects of the OPs life.

He is extremely neurotic (definition - a fundamental personality trait characterized by anxiety, moodiness, worry, envy and jealousy).

So it's not necessarily that she is in physical danger (it's a risk, a low one) but that he will launch a campaign of extreme pressure tactics and emotional blackmail to get her to return.

He has learned that if he grinds her down about a series of small things (going out of the house, for example), she eventually capitulates even though she doesn't want to and resents it.

He's extremely manipulative when it comes to ordinary activities, getting her to follow his will. He's also very, very successful - she rarely leaves his side and yet still worries that her absence makes him suffer. The ordinary person in the street would see her as the victim, yet he believes his vulnerability and needs comes first.

If/when she leaves, it will be horrendous for him - he goes berserk if she tries to meet her studying commitments that he freely indulges in. His world will collapse. She's not popping out to the shops, she's taking away his kids and income stream, he will have to move property, his benefit income will be very low - perhaps £71 a week JSA or £100 pw ESA, a subsistence sum.

So it will not be any surprise at all if he reacts in a very immature and emotional way to losing his current place in the world, one where he is cushioned from reality and where she inadvertently supports his view of the world as a hostile place.

At the very least, she is going to be bombarded with communication to force her to return. He knows how to make her feel guilty. He will ramp it up and push her buttons. She has lost the ability to stand firm because of the extreme emotional control she's been under. He will want to regain his influence over her. He's not going to let her go.

dancingfairy

I believe you both need help. I don't believe he is going to get better the way things are going. You've tried for 20 years, and he hasn't got better so far. I believe you need outside help.
Yes, he is ill but he is also using that as an excuse to trap you, not whether that's deliberate or just because he's so wrapped up in his own reality, who knows, but it's clearly not healthy.
Unfortunately because you are such a kind and caring person you've made yourself a prison, you've done what a lot of people would do and try and make adjustments/accomodate the other person's illness but you've done this to such an extent you've lost sight of you
I truly believe you both need outside help, now whether that's you both living separately or whether he gets his meds sorted and gets some real help I don't know. Sometimes loving someone is not enough I'm afraid and you need to start putting yourself and your children first.
P.S I don't mean to be horrible, it's clear you are both suffering greatly from this situation.
df