Compensation for delayed flights Discussion Area

glentoran99

topyam wrote: »

What does this show?

The Court stated that “extraordinary circumstances” may be regarded as covering only
circumstances which are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air
carrier concerned and are beyond the actual control of that carrier on account of its
nature or origin. The Court pointed out that air carriers are confronted as a matter of
course in the exercise of their activity with various technical problems to which the
operation of those aircraft inevitably gives rise. The resolution of a technical problem
which comes to light during aircraft maintenance or is caused by failure to maintain an
aircraft must therefore be regarded as inherent in the normal exercise of an air carrier’s
activity and cannot therefore constitute as such an “extraordinary circumstance” within
the meaning of Article 5(3) of the Regulation.

topyam

glentoran99 wrote: »

The Court stated that “extraordinary circumstances” may be regarded as covering only
circumstances which are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air
carrier concerned and are beyond the actual control of that carrier on account of its
nature or origin. The Court pointed out that air carriers are confronted as a matter of
course in the exercise of their activity with various technical problems to which the
operation of those aircraft inevitably gives rise. The resolution of a technical problem
which comes to light during aircraft maintenance or is caused by failure to maintain an
aircraft must therefore be regarded as inherent in the normal exercise of an air carrier’s
activity and cannot therefore constitute as such an “extraordinary circumstance” within
the meaning of Article 5(3) of the Regulation.

Is there any wording specific to operational reasons being cited by airlines as extraordinary?

pete146

Hi

In May 2012 myself and my girlfriend went to Cuba from Manchester. The below is the email I have written to Thomas Cook Airlines:



Dear Sir or Madam,

Re: Compensation claim for delayed flight
Flight reference: MAN/SNU TCX812

I am writing regarding flight [TXC812] on [20/05/12] from Manchester to Santa Clara, Cuba with the scheduled departure time of 10.55. This flight arrived 6.5 hours late at Santa Clara.

The judgment of the Court of Justice of the European Union in Tui & others v CAA confirmed the applicability of compensation for delay as set out in the Sturgeon case. As such, I am seeking compensation under EC Regulation 261/2004 for this delayed flight.

The passengers in the party were:
*****
*****

My scheduled flight length was 7210 kilometres, therefore I am seeking €600 per delayed passenger in my party. The total is €1,200 for all passengers.

During the delay the passengers in my party were provided with a voucher for under £7 for refreshments. This was insufficient for the length of the delay, and the passengers in my party spent £18 in addition to this voucher on refreshments. Please refund £18.

The total compensation sought is:
€1,200
£18

I look forward to a full response to this letter within 14 days. If I do not receive a satisfactory response I intend to pursue my complaint further, which could mean taking it to court.

Yours faithfully,



I don't really care about the refreshment money - but though I would ask anyway, as we did have to spend our own money too.


I received this reply

Firstly, I would like to thank you for taking the time to write to us about your recent travel arrangements.

Having read the content of your letter, I can see that aspects of the holiday have given cause for concern. I am sorry that this is the case and would assure you that as a business, we utilise feedback to ensure that our products are improved and enhanced to reflect the needs of our customers.

We do advise all guests to view a brochure prior to their departure. This is because it contains valuable information for guests as well as containing the booking conditions, which form part of the contract between us. Our booking conditions state that a letter should be sent to our Customer Relations Department within 28 days of return from holiday. Failing to complain within 28 days of return may reduce or extinguish any rights the guest has to make a claim from us and ultimately may mean that we are unable to investigate your concerns.

In light of the above and due to the time that has elapsed since your return and writing to us, I regret to advise that we are unable to investigate the comments. Nevertheless, the information that has been supplied will be shared with our colleagues overseas and our Quality Assurance department, so that we can work with our suppliers to identify any immediate solutions.

In closing I would like to thank you for taking the time to bring this matter to our attention and regret any impact this may have had upon your holiday enjoyment.




To which I replied:
Thank you for your swift reply.

Unfortunately, as referenced in my letter, the Court of Justice of the European Union has recently confirmed that in cases such as mine, the passenger is entitled to compensation. It is unfortunate that your brochure does not reflect this, but I shall choose to follow the information provided by the courts rather than the information in your brochure.

The court of justice has also made clear that the passenger has a right to claim compensation (at the fixed levels detailed in my email attachment) up to 5 years after the flight in question. There is no legal requirement for me to contact you within 28 days.

May I please ask that your legal team, or somebody in a position of authority look at my complaint and respond to me within the next 14 days. If this matter is not resolved in accordance with my initial email, I shall not hesitate to contact the Civil Aviation Authority. If necessary I shall also commence court proceedings against Thomas Cook.

If you are not aware of the court ruling that I have made reference to, please review the following internet page before responding to me again:


Thanks again for your time, I look forward to hearing from you shortly.


I then received:
I am writing in response to your further correspondence regarding your recent travel arrangements with Thomas Cook.

It is with regret that I note your flight with us was delayed. Whilst delays are an unfortunate part of air travel, I would like to assure you that a lot of work goes on behind the scenes to ensure that any disruption to our passengers is kept to an absolute minimum.

When a delay is initially identified, it is not always immediately apparent as to when a revised take off time can be secured. A number of factors have to be considered, which can vary dependent on the reason for the delay, and quite often we are reliant on outside influences, such as Airport Authorities or Air Traffic Control. Throughout, however, as soon as confirmed information is available, this is passed onto our customers as quickly as possible through our handling agents at the airport.

Although delays do occur on occasion, they can arise for a number of different reasons, and having carried out a full investigation the specific circumstances surrounding the delay to your own flight were of a technical nature, which were extraordinary, despite Thomas Cook taking all reasonable precautions necessary to prevent the situation. All aircraft can experience technical problems that are totally unforeseen, despite all reasonable attempts to ensure they are maintained to a good standard, in line with CAA regulations. These situations can be compared to the maintenance of your own car, which can break down at any time without prior warning, regardless of its service history, and would be considered completely beyond the owners control.

I can see that customers were provided with welfare during the delay, in line with our obligations under EU Regulation 261/2004. As the events were defined as “extraordinary” no payment of compensation is considered appropriate in this case.

Please be assured that on-time performance is a key measure for us as a business, and we constantly review our operations to ensure we deliver the best results, and service. I would like to offer our apologies for any inconvenience you were caused on this occasion and I hope that despite this, your stay was found to be an enjoyable one.


Yours sincerely



My response:
Thank you again for your prompt reply.

I do however dispute what you are telling me. According to the CAA, the following circumstances constitute 'Extraordinary':

Bad Weather
Industrial Action
Political unrest
Security issues
Air Traffic Management issues

Extraordinary relates to anything which is out of the airline's hands, and cannot be influenced by the airline. Technical problems are not included in the list of 'Extraordinary Circumstances' as they are controlled by the airline.

I have now been told that I do not have grounds for compensation for 2 entirely separate reasons:
1) I did not claim within 28 days
2) The circumstances are extraordinary

Neither of these reasons legally prevent me from making a claim for compensation. The first is purely a Thomas Cook policy decision, the second appears to be an attempt to mislead me with industry jargon.

I do not expect to be given a third incorrect reason.

As this is a ruling by the European Court of Justice, I expect you and your company to abide by the ruling, and offer me the compensation that I rightly entitled to. I am astounded that instead, you provide reasons to avoid your responsibilities.

Once again, I look forward to your reply - hopefully this time you will take responsibility and offer me what I am rightfully entitled to. If this matter is not resolved within the next 14 days, you will leave me with no option that to complain the the CAA and to look at commencing court proceedings.

Thank you once again




The last email was sent 2 weeks ago and I have heard nothing back. Until this point they had been prompt.

Am I in the right here, and is this worth pursuing? Any input / advice appreciated!

Thanks

superbigal36

Just to mention to anyone who was affected by the terrorist attack at Glasgow Airport. I got the compensation from FlyBE without question for a cancelled flight from Birmingham to Edinburgh the next evening. I suspect planes were all over the place. There were not many on the flight so they easily got us all on the next scheduled a few hours later which was also quiet. Was also offered to fly to Glasgow on the night.
I claimed within a fortnight of the event and was compensated within 3 weeks. Compensation far outweighed price of flights so it was a cheap trip.

glentoran99

pete146 wrote: »

Hi

In May 2012 myself and my girlfriend went to Cuba from Manchester. The below is the email I have written to Thomas Cook Airlines:



Dear Sir or Madam,

Re: Compensation claim for delayed flight
Flight reference: MAN/SNU TCX812

I am writing regarding flight [TXC812] on [20/05/12] from Manchester to Santa Clara, Cuba with the scheduled departure time of 10.55. This flight arrived 6.5 hours late at Santa Clara.

The judgment of the Court of Justice of the European Union in Tui & others v CAA confirmed the applicability of compensation for delay as set out in the Sturgeon case. As such, I am seeking compensation under EC Regulation 261/2004 for this delayed flight.

The passengers in the party were:
*****
*****

My scheduled flight length was 7210 kilometres, therefore I am seeking €600 per delayed passenger in my party. The total is €1,200 for all passengers.

During the delay the passengers in my party were provided with a voucher for under £7 for refreshments. This was insufficient for the length of the delay, and the passengers in my party spent £18 in addition to this voucher on refreshments. Please refund £18.

The total compensation sought is:
€1,200
£18

I look forward to a full response to this letter within 14 days. If I do not receive a satisfactory response I intend to pursue my complaint further, which could mean taking it to court.

Yours faithfully,



I don't really care about the refreshment money - but though I would ask anyway, as we did have to spend our own money too.


I received this reply

Firstly, I would like to thank you for taking the time to write to us about your recent travel arrangements.

Having read the content of your letter, I can see that aspects of the holiday have given cause for concern. I am sorry that this is the case and would assure you that as a business, we utilise feedback to ensure that our products are improved and enhanced to reflect the needs of our customers.

We do advise all guests to view a brochure prior to their departure. This is because it contains valuable information for guests as well as containing the booking conditions, which form part of the contract between us. Our booking conditions state that a letter should be sent to our Customer Relations Department within 28 days of return from holiday. Failing to complain within 28 days of return may reduce or extinguish any rights the guest has to make a claim from us and ultimately may mean that we are unable to investigate your concerns.

In light of the above and due to the time that has elapsed since your return and writing to us, I regret to advise that we are unable to investigate the comments. Nevertheless, the information that has been supplied will be shared with our colleagues overseas and our Quality Assurance department, so that we can work with our suppliers to identify any immediate solutions.

In closing I would like to thank you for taking the time to bring this matter to our attention and regret any impact this may have had upon your holiday enjoyment.




To which I replied:
Thank you for your swift reply.

Unfortunately, as referenced in my letter, the Court of Justice of the European Union has recently confirmed that in cases such as mine, the passenger is entitled to compensation. It is unfortunate that your brochure does not reflect this, but I shall choose to follow the information provided by the courts rather than the information in your brochure.

The court of justice has also made clear that the passenger has a right to claim compensation (at the fixed levels detailed in my email attachment) up to 5 years after the flight in question. There is no legal requirement for me to contact you within 28 days.

May I please ask that your legal team, or somebody in a position of authority look at my complaint and respond to me within the next 14 days. If this matter is not resolved in accordance with my initial email, I shall not hesitate to contact the Civil Aviation Authority. If necessary I shall also commence court proceedings against Thomas Cook.

If you are not aware of the court ruling that I have made reference to, please review the following internet page before responding to me again:


Thanks again for your time, I look forward to hearing from you shortly.


I then received:
I am writing in response to your further correspondence regarding your recent travel arrangements with Thomas Cook.

It is with regret that I note your flight with us was delayed. Whilst delays are an unfortunate part of air travel, I would like to assure you that a lot of work goes on behind the scenes to ensure that any disruption to our passengers is kept to an absolute minimum.

When a delay is initially identified, it is not always immediately apparent as to when a revised take off time can be secured. A number of factors have to be considered, which can vary dependent on the reason for the delay, and quite often we are reliant on outside influences, such as Airport Authorities or Air Traffic Control. Throughout, however, as soon as confirmed information is available, this is passed onto our customers as quickly as possible through our handling agents at the airport.

Although delays do occur on occasion, they can arise for a number of different reasons, and having carried out a full investigation the specific circumstances surrounding the delay to your own flight were of a technical nature, which were extraordinary, despite Thomas Cook taking all reasonable precautions necessary to prevent the situation. All aircraft can experience technical problems that are totally unforeseen, despite all reasonable attempts to ensure they are maintained to a good standard, in line with CAA regulations. These situations can be compared to the maintenance of your own car, which can break down at any time without prior warning, regardless of its service history, and would be considered completely beyond the owners control.

I can see that customers were provided with welfare during the delay, in line with our obligations under EU Regulation 261/2004. As the events were defined as “extraordinary” no payment of compensation is considered appropriate in this case.

Please be assured that on-time performance is a key measure for us as a business, and we constantly review our operations to ensure we deliver the best results, and service. I would like to offer our apologies for any inconvenience you were caused on this occasion and I hope that despite this, your stay was found to be an enjoyable one.


Yours sincerely



My response:
Thank you again for your prompt reply.

I do however dispute what you are telling me. According to the CAA, the following circumstances constitute 'Extraordinary':

Bad Weather
Industrial Action
Political unrest
Security issues
Air Traffic Management issues

Extraordinary relates to anything which is out of the airline's hands, and cannot be influenced by the airline. Technical problems are not included in the list of 'Extraordinary Circumstances' as they are controlled by the airline.

I have now been told that I do not have grounds for compensation for 2 entirely separate reasons:
1) I did not claim within 28 days
2) The circumstances are extraordinary

Neither of these reasons legally prevent me from making a claim for compensation. The first is purely a Thomas Cook policy decision, the second appears to be an attempt to mislead me with industry jargon.

I do not expect to be given a third incorrect reason.

As this is a ruling by the European Court of Justice, I expect you and your company to abide by the ruling, and offer me the compensation that I rightly entitled to. I am astounded that instead, you provide reasons to avoid your responsibilities.

Once again, I look forward to your reply - hopefully this time you will take responsibility and offer me what I am rightfully entitled to. If this matter is not resolved within the next 14 days, you will leave me with no option that to complain the the CAA and to look at commencing court proceedings.

Thank you once again




The last email was sent 2 weeks ago and I have heard nothing back. Until this point they had been prompt.

Am I in the right here, and is this worth pursuing? Any input / advice appreciated!

Thanks

Definitely worth pursuing, take this info to the CAA and see what they say

Gorbar

I agree take it ti the CAA but the TC will deny having received it

pete146

Gorbar wrote: »

I agree take it ti the CAA but the TC will deny having received it

Well I've sent it twice, and received their automated 'thanks for your email' response

MCSAVE

Is anybody else struggling to get a reply from the CAA? I'm at the MCOL stage with TC but the CAA just aren't replying.

Crazyangel

Thank you all for the advice re:delayed but whilst still at hotel. Thomas Cook replied to me stating that I was not entitled to compensation as welfare was provided (a paragraph inserted into the exact same letter as Pete's last reply from TC - word for word) so I'll try and pursue!
Thanks all, good luck to you all too!

Mark2spark

pete146 wrote: »

Hi

In May 2012 myself and my girlfriend went to Cuba from Manchester. The below is the email I have written to Thomas Cook Airlines:

Dear Sir or Madam,

Blah blah blah

Am I in the right here, and is this worth pursuing? Any input / advice appreciated!

Thanks

An excellent series of letters Pete, deffo worth pursuing :T