Compensation for delayed flights Discussion Area

persrp

Am I eligible for EU261 Compensation - SwissAir JHB to LHR?

I had flights booked from OR Tambo (JHB) to London Heathrow (LHR) changing at Zurich (ZHR) on 19 October 2023, all booked as a single trip through SwissAir.

The leg from JHB to ZHR (LX283) was delayed (no reason given) by ~2 hours, meaning the connecting flight (ZHR to LHR LX316) was missed.

SwissAir rebooked on the next connecting flight (LX318/20), which arrived ~3.5 hours after the scheduled one (11.25am rather than 07.55).

Am I eligible for the compensation for the Zurich to Heathrow leg under the UK261 rules? SwissAir have said that I’m not eligible for the whole flights as ‘considering the flight in question had a first touch point in non-EU third country’, and that ‘ In this context, we would like to point out that ECJ rulings are only fully applicable in the EU, whereas they are precisely not binding on the Swiss civil courts’.

My understanding was that it was the arrival time and destination that made the relevant legislation applicable, so would UK261 apply for a non-EU to UK flight operated by SwissAir (eg not EU airline but comes under most of the EU legislation)?

eskbanker

persrp said:

Am I eligible for the compensation for the Zurich to Heathrow leg under the UK261 rules? SwissAir have said that I’m not eligible for the whole flights as ‘considering the flight in question had a first touch point in non-EU third country’, and that ‘ In this context, we would like to point out that ECJ rulings are only fully applicable in the EU, whereas they are precisely not binding on the Swiss civil courts’.

My understanding was that it was the arrival time and destination that made the relevant legislation applicable, so would UK261 apply for a non-EU to UK flight operated by SwissAir (eg not EU airline but comes under most of the EU legislation)?

For flights into the UK, UK261 only applies to flights operated by UK or Community carriers, where the latter is defined as "an air carrier with a valid operating licence granted by a Member State", so SwissAir doesn't fit that bill.  They do choose to comply with many of the provisions of the EU equivalent but not wholly so, so if they've knocked you back already then I'm not sure you have anywhere else to turn.

meanmum

We have a slightly complex situation - we booked direct through Kenya Airways and were due to fly: 
Antananarivo to Nairobi (Kenya airways) - Nairobi to Amsterdam (Kenya) - Amsterdam to Manchester (KLM).
10 days before the flight, they cancelled the first leg and moved us to a Kenya airways flight nearly 14 hours later, with the subsequent flights being changed to later flights operated by KLM. 
We asked if they would pay for the extra night in the hotel and they refused.
Do we have any case for compensation under EU/UK rules?  

eskbanker

meanmum said:

We have a slightly complex situation - we booked direct through Kenya Airways and were due to fly: 
Antananarivo to Nairobi (Kenya airways) - Nairobi to Amsterdam (Kenya) - Amsterdam to Manchester (KLM).
10 days before the flight, they cancelled the first leg and moved us to a Kenya airways flight nearly 14 hours later, with the subsequent flights being changed to later flights operated by KLM. 
We asked if they would pay for the extra night in the hotel and they refused.
Do we have any case for compensation under EU/UK rules?  

No, neither the EU or UK regulations encompass either of the first two flights within that booking, so you're in the hands of Kenya Airways or their national aviation regulator, or your travel insurer.

meanmum

eskbanker said:

meanmum said:

We have a slightly complex situation - we booked direct through Kenya Airways and were due to fly: 
Antananarivo to Nairobi (Kenya airways) - Nairobi to Amsterdam (Kenya) - Amsterdam to Manchester (KLM).
10 days before the flight, they cancelled the first leg and moved us to a Kenya airways flight nearly 14 hours later, with the subsequent flights being changed to later flights operated by KLM. 
We asked if they would pay for the extra night in the hotel and they refused.
Do we have any case for compensation under EU/UK rules?  

No, neither the EU or UK regulations encompass either of the first two flights within that booking, so you're in the hands of Kenya Airways or their national aviation regulator, or your travel insurer.

So it's not relevant that 2 out of 3 of our flights taken were operated by KLM as an EU airline? 

Caz3121

What would your basis be on a claim to KLM given their flights as booked, I suspect, still operated as planned but you were not able to use them due to another airline cancelling. KLM has no fault in your delay.

eskbanker

meanmum said:

eskbanker said:

meanmum said:

We have a slightly complex situation - we booked direct through Kenya Airways and were due to fly: 
Antananarivo to Nairobi (Kenya airways) - Nairobi to Amsterdam (Kenya) - Amsterdam to Manchester (KLM).
10 days before the flight, they cancelled the first leg and moved us to a Kenya airways flight nearly 14 hours later, with the subsequent flights being changed to later flights operated by KLM. 
We asked if they would pay for the extra night in the hotel and they refused.
Do we have any case for compensation under EU/UK rules?  

No, neither the EU or UK regulations encompass either of the first two flights within that booking, so you're in the hands of Kenya Airways or their national aviation regulator, or your travel insurer.

So it's not relevant that 2 out of 3 of our flights taken were operated by KLM as an EU airline? 

No, although if one of the KLM flights to/from a UK/EU airport was delayed or cancelled that that may have been a different story, but if the only flight to be cancelled was a Kenyan one within Africa then that's outside UK/EU 261 scope, and so you'd need to pursue the matter via the other channels highlighted above.

meanmum

Thanks, so it's the actual flight that matters, not the overall trip - Kenyan airways should have been delivering us to a UK airport by a certain time, and they failed to do that.
Clearly it's not KLM's fault, Kenyan just put on their (codeshare) flights as the next available.

eskbanker

meanmum said:

Thanks, so it's the actual flight that matters, not the overall trip - Kenyan airways should have been delivering us to a UK airport by a certain time, and they failed to do that.
Clearly it's not KLM's fault, Kenyan just put on their (codeshare) flights as the next available.

It can be the whole trip rather than a specific flight, but only if that trip or flight falls within the scope of the UK/EU regulations and this one doesn't - the only Kenya Airways flights/trips that would be in scope are those departing from the UK/EU:

This Regulation shall apply:

(a) to passengers departing from an airport located in the United Kingdom;

(b) to passengers departing from an airport located in a country other than the United Kingdom to an airport situated in—

(i) the United Kingdom if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a Community carrier or a UK air carrier; or

(ii) the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a UK air carrier

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/article/3

meanmum

Thanks, I'm trying to get my head around this. We were originally ticketed with the final leg being KLM AMS to MAN. Is the fact that this is an EU carrier not relevant to the case?