Fathers Day - am I being unreasonable?

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  • unschooler
    unschooler Posts: 41 Forumite
    pigpen wrote: »
    Just be glad your wife is not an alcoholic or abusive and inflicting all the crap that comes with that on the children. They will be able to make an informed choice when they are older about whether they want to continue going or not.. but at least they have the benefit of experience to base it on rather than being 'brainwashed' by non-believing parents into thinking it is all rubbish!

    Not necessarily. Some churches, some religions, do not allow children to have the benefit of making informed choices. They spend years teaching children if they do not believe and do what they tell them that makes them bad. They tell them that if they do not do these things they are not only bad but will be duly punished in the afterlife.

    More than that, some churches tell the children that their beliefs are facts. How are they then to learn critical thinking or an understanding of the scientific method or being able to work out logically what they want to believe?

    How do children who are being taught that the world is only six thousand years old and given 'proof' that this is so, and told that people who don't believe this are sinners going to be able to step away from that as adults and make genuinely informed choices about ALL the available options?

    Surely being truly informed means learning about lots of different religions and ways of worship and learning about atheism and not favouring any particular thing to spend an hour a week learning about?

    I'm not anti-religion. I just think that when there is an atheist parent and a religious parent, the religious parent doesn't get automatic right to choose how the children are raised. I also think that once a child starts being part of a religion, they are not looking at all options equally.
  • Torry_Quine
    Torry_Quine Posts: 18,828 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary Bake Off Boss!
    unschooler wrote: »
    Not necessarily. Some churches, some religions, do not allow children to have the benefit of making informed choices. They spend years teaching children if they do not believe and do what they tell them that makes them bad. They tell them that if they do not do these things they are not only bad but will be duly punished in the afterlife.

    More than that, some churches tell the children that their beliefs are facts. How are they then to learn critical thinking or an understanding of the scientific method or being able to work out logically what they want to believe?

    How do children who are being taught that the world is only six thousand years old and given 'proof' that this is so, and told that people who don't believe this are sinners going to be able to step away from that as adults and make genuinely informed choices about ALL the available options?

    Surely being truly informed means learning about lots of different religions and ways of worship and learning about atheism and not favouring any particular thing to spend an hour a week learning about?

    I'm not anti-religion. I just think that when there is an atheist parent and a religious parent, the religious parent doesn't get automatic right to choose how the children are raised. I also think that once a child starts being part of a religion, they are not looking at all options equally.

    Mainstream churches don't teach that the earth is only 6000 years old and certainly not that if you don't believe that you are a sinner.

    They teach that we are all sinners and as I've yet to meet anyone who is perfect this is the case.
    Lost my soulmate so life is empty.

    I can bear pain myself, he said softly, but I couldna bear yours. That would take more strength than I have -
    Diana Gabaldon, Outlander
  • unschooler
    unschooler Posts: 41 Forumite
    Mainstream churches don't teach that the earth is only 6000 years old and certainly not that if you don't believe that you are a sinner.
    I didn't say anything about mainstream. I said some churches and some religions.

    However, I know a couple of mainstream churches who tell people they will go to hell if they do not follow their teachings (at the very least that they are restricted from heaven.) I have heard that one at a christening, a burial and a wedding all of different denominations of christianity, 2 of which were 'mainstream'.
  • poet123
    poet123 Posts: 24,099 Forumite
    unschooler wrote: »
    Not necessarily. Some churches, some religions, do not allow children to have the benefit of making informed choices. They spend years teaching children if they do not believe and do what they tell them that makes them bad. They tell them that if they do not do these things they are not only bad but will be duly punished in the afterlife.

    More than that, some churches tell the children that their beliefs are facts. How are they then to learn critical thinking or an understanding of the scientific method or being able to work out logically what they want to believe?

    How do children who are being taught that the world is only six thousand years old and given 'proof' that this is so, and told that people who don't believe this are sinners going to be able to step away from that as adults and make genuinely informed choices about ALL the available options?

    Surely being truly informed means learning about lots of different religions and ways of worship and learning about atheism and not favouring any particular thing to spend an hour a week learning about?

    I'm not anti-religion. I just think that when there is an atheist parent and a religious parent, the religious parent doesn't get automatic right to choose how the children are raised. I also think that once a child starts being part of a religion, they are not looking at all options equally.

    So how do you explain the scientists, doctors, teachers, lawyers etc.etc. who believe in God? Are they all devoid of the ability to think critically?
  • Torry_Quine
    Torry_Quine Posts: 18,828 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary Bake Off Boss!
    unschooler wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about mainstream. I said some churches and some religions.

    However, I know a couple of mainstream churches who tell people they will go to hell if they do not follow their teachings (at the very least that they are restricted from heaven.) I have heard that one at a christening, a burial and a wedding all of different denominations of christianity, 2 of which were 'mainstream'.

    We have no indication that the church in question believes these ideas though so not really relevant here.

    All Christians though do teach that if you don't follow Christ then you don't go to heaven and why would you want to.

    No denomination has the monopoly on the truth so if they say they have then run.
    Lost my soulmate so life is empty.

    I can bear pain myself, he said softly, but I couldna bear yours. That would take more strength than I have -
    Diana Gabaldon, Outlander
  • unschooler
    unschooler Posts: 41 Forumite
    poet123 wrote: »
    So how do you explain the scientists, doctors, teachers, lawyers etc.etc. who believe in God? Are they all devoid of the ability to think critically?

    No and I didn't suggest otherwise. Lots of people who don't believe in God can't think critically and again I didn't suggest otherwise. Some religions tell children that their beliefs are facts. Some tell children that they have to follow their teachings to be good/get a reward in the afterlife. Some tell them that man lived with dinosaurs and some do not allow children to question.

    Why do you think that means anything more than what I said?
  • unschooler
    unschooler Posts: 41 Forumite
    We have no indication that the church in question believes these ideas though so not really relevant here.

    All Christians though do teach that if you don't follow Christ then you don't go to heaven and why would you want to.

    Huh?

    It was relevant because I was disputing a specific argument that children can make an informed choice when they are older. You are making my own point by pointing out that all christians teach that you don't get to heaven without following Christ. Why would you want to? Why would any child want to after being told that's the only way to see their loved ones again for example?
  • Torry_Quine
    Torry_Quine Posts: 18,828 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary Bake Off Boss!
    unschooler wrote: »
    Huh?

    It was relevant because I was disputing a specific argument that children can make an informed choice when they are older. You are making my own point by pointing out that all Christians teach that you don't get to heaven without following Christ. Why would you want to? Why would any child want to after being told that's the only way to see their loved ones again for example?

    Only if the loved ones in question were themselves Christians. If not then you won't (by Christian teaching) see them anyway.
    Lost my soulmate so life is empty.

    I can bear pain myself, he said softly, but I couldna bear yours. That would take more strength than I have -
    Diana Gabaldon, Outlander
  • poet123
    poet123 Posts: 24,099 Forumite
    unschooler wrote: »
    No and I didn't suggest otherwise. Lots of people who don't believe in God can't think critically and again I didn't suggest otherwise. Some religions tell children that their beliefs are facts. Some tell children that they have to follow their teachings to be good/get a reward in the afterlife. Some tell them that man lived with dinosaurs and some do not allow children to question.

    Why do you think that means anything more than what I said?

    So what does this mean?
    "How are they then to learn critical thinking or an understanding of the scientific method or being able to work out logically what they want to believe?"

    Clearly some, many do if they go on to work in the professions I mention, but your inference is that if they are exposed to religion in childhood that is harder/unlikely/impossible. You may not understand it, that doesn't mean it does not happen.
  • unschooler
    unschooler Posts: 41 Forumite
    Only if the loved ones in question were themselves Christians. If not then you won't (by Christian teaching) see them anyway.

    Again, that doesn't dispute my statement, especially where a parent is of the religion and takes the child to church every Sunday throughout childhood.

    No-one has actually said anything that disagrees with my point, so I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at.
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