Flight delay and cancellation compensation, Ryanair ONLY

7kambarys

2019 June. Ponta Delgada (Por) - Porto (Por).

Last year we had a flight cancelled last minute due to a radar failure at destination airport. Ryanair offered full refund for unhappened flight, which was refused by our side. Then they offered a flight with themselves in the upcoming days.

As there were no Ryanair flights to our destination for two or more days we asked to be taken on another company's plane.

The next available flight (with another carrier) to our destination was the next day. Ryanair refused to buy tickets for another

company's flight, so we did it ourselves.

Then Ryanair arranged accommodation for all the passengers (that's a respectable gesture as the city ofdeparture is small and crowded in the high season).

And so the next morning we flew to our destination.

Back home raised a dispute with them, got a standard response that radar failure at destination airport is a force majeure, so we're not eligible for EU261 and that we agreed on the full refund and received it already. I wrote back, stating 'No, we never agreed, nor received a refund. We would like to get compensation for the price that we paid for another carrier's tickets''. Then Ryanair just ignored that and sent the refund for unused flight.

And stopped the communication:)

So started European Small Claims Procedure with Swords district court. November 2019.

Asked for the expenses (new flight-unused flight + meals). Haven't asked for compensation by EU261 as radar failure sounded like a force majeure for which the airline can not be responsible (now I do believe that should have asked for EU621, as the plane and the crew was at the departure airport, so technically they could fly to destination nearby and then take the passengers by buses).

After three months of waiting (2020 February) I wrote to court, that I'm still awaiting response.

The court came back saying 'Sorry, we did sent it to you back in Ddecember', which is no true. But did resend Notice of Dispute from Ryanair with some irrelevant nonsense information.

Then I wrote back to the District court that Claimant and Respondent haven't reached an agreement (not in any special form, just plain email). And that the court has to interfere - give judgment or ask for additional information (March 2020).

Got a response that due to pandemics court is dealing only with emergency matters, so I should wait.

Okay, It's no emergency here. Wrote them back in June - answer came that the Court hopefully will start working with all the matters soon.

Then wrote in September - got a response saying that they hope to have a result in my case as soon as possible and that they will contact me.

November - I wrote to court that ESC is a written procedure, and that they had to give judgment back in March. Surely, due to pandemics the delays are absolutely understandable, but that according to regulations on that European Small Claim they had to give judgment, summon a hearing, ask for details or whatever in 30days. This time got no response from the court.

Should I write a formal letter by post to Court asking for details how is my case doing? If so are there any special forms?
Should i just forget that Small claim sent to Swords District court and send a new one to Dublin? Including this time compensation according to EU261?

CKhalvashi

7kambarys said:

2019 June. Ponta Delgada (Por) - Porto (Por).

Last year we had a flight cancelled last minute due to a radar failure at destination airport. Ryanair offered full refund for unhappened flight, which was refused by our side. Then they offered a flight with themselves in the upcoming days.

As there were no Ryanair flights to our destination for two or more days we asked to be taken on another company's plane.

The next available flight (with another carrier) to our destination was the next day. Ryanair refused to buy tickets for another

company's flight, so we did it ourselves.

Then Ryanair arranged accommodation for all the passengers (that's a respectable gesture as the city ofdeparture is small and crowded in the high season).

And so the next morning we flew to our destination.

Back home raised a dispute with them, got a standard response that radar failure at destination airport is a force majeure, so we're not eligible for EU261 and that we agreed on the full refund and received it already. I wrote back, stating 'No, we never agreed, nor received a refund. We would like to get compensation for the price that we paid for another carrier's tickets''. Then Ryanair just ignored that and sent the refund for unused flight.

And stopped the communication:)

So started European Small Claims Procedure with Swords district court. November 2019.

Asked for the expenses (new flight-unused flight + meals). Haven't asked for compensation by EU261 as radar failure sounded like a force majeure for which the airline can not be responsible (now I do believe that should have asked for EU621, as the plane and the crew was at the departure airport, so technically they could fly to destination nearby and then take the passengers by buses).

After three months of waiting (2020 February) I wrote to court, that I'm still awaiting response.

The court came back saying 'Sorry, we did sent it to you back in Ddecember', which is no true. But did resend Notice of Dispute from Ryanair with some irrelevant nonsense information.

Then I wrote back to the District court that Claimant and Respondent haven't reached an agreement (not in any special form, just plain email). And that the court has to interfere - give judgment or ask for additional information (March 2020).

Got a response that due to pandemics court is dealing only with emergency matters, so I should wait.

Okay, It's no emergency here. Wrote them back in June - answer came that the Court hopefully will start working with all the matters soon.

Then wrote in September - got a response saying that they hope to have a result in my case as soon as possible and that they will contact me.

November - I wrote to court that ESC is a written procedure, and that they had to give judgment back in March. Surely, due to pandemics the delays are absolutely understandable, but that according to regulations on that European Small Claim they had to give judgment, summon a hearing, ask for details or whatever in 30days. This time got no response from the court.

Should I write a formal letter by post to Court asking for details how is my case doing? If so are there any special forms?
Should i just forget that Small claim sent to Swords District court and send a new one to Dublin? Including this time compensation according to EU261?

What are you actually trying to achieve through the courts?

Ryanair are correct that they don't need to offer you compensation as the cancellation was due to reasons outside their control. An ILS not working isn't a safety issue as long as there is good visibility at the airport of arrival, but an RA or weather radar is a much more serious problem. The owners of the airport are responsible for the maintenance of all airport systems, not Ryanair.

If you have received a full refund for any usused sectors on that booking (any different bookings you have no entitlement to a refund, the 6 letter/number code needs to be the same), I can't see what more Ryanair can do. Ryanair offered you another flight in 2 days and you chose not to take it, this is going to be difficult for you to claim another airlines fare. I'd consider that the later flight (with Ryanair) and hotel accommodation is a 'reasonable re-routing', especially as you're stating this happened in peak summer, when a spare aircraft likely wasn't available. You were completely entitled to not accept this and avail of a refund.

7kambarys

CKhalvashi said:

What are you actually trying to achieve through the courts?
If you have received a full refund for any usused sectors on that booking (any different bookings you have no entitlement to a refund, the 6 letter/number code needs to be the same), I can't see what more Ryanair can do. Ryanair offered you another flight in 2 days and you chose not to take it, this is going to be difficult for you to claim another airlines fare. I'd consider that the later flight (with Ryanair) and hotel accommodation is a 'reasonable re-routing', especially as you're stating this happened in peak summer, when a spare aircraft likely wasn't available. You were completely entitled to not accept this and avail of a refund.

I want to claim the expenses for another fare. As I have received a refund for unused flight (to which a never agreed), that would be price differences between the flights.
I always wanted to choose 'rerouting to my final destination at the earliest opportunity'. And Ryanair clearly have not offered earliest opportunity. Their offer was their own flights (someday) that very doubtfully would take me to the destination of mine after two days (as there were just three flights per week, and you need to put allmost 200passengers in high season). From my point of view 'earliest opportunity' is next Flight, from Ryanair's point of view - earliest opportunity is only Ryanair's flight.

CKhalvashi

7kambarys said:

CKhalvashi said:

What are you actually trying to achieve through the courts?
If you have received a full refund for any usused sectors on that booking (any different bookings you have no entitlement to a refund, the 6 letter/number code needs to be the same), I can't see what more Ryanair can do. Ryanair offered you another flight in 2 days and you chose not to take it, this is going to be difficult for you to claim another airlines fare. I'd consider that the later flight (with Ryanair) and hotel accommodation is a 'reasonable re-routing', especially as you're stating this happened in peak summer, when a spare aircraft likely wasn't available. You were completely entitled to not accept this and avail of a refund.

I want to claim the expenses for another fare. As I have received a refund for unused flight (to which a never agreed), that would be price differences between the flights.
I always wanted to choose 'rerouting to my final destination at the earliest opportunity'. And Ryanair clearly have not offered earliest opportunity. Their offer was their own flights (someday) that very doubtfully would take me to the destination of mine after two days (as there were just three flights per week, and you need to put allmost 200passengers in high season). From my point of view 'earliest opportunity' is next Flight, from Ryanair's point of view - earliest opportunity is only Ryanair's flight.

However that right will be subject to the availability of seats and comparable conditions.

If Ryanair (who operate the 737-800 with 189 seats a piece) have a flight that is 75% full, and the other carrier operated for example the E190 (which have a maximum capacity of 112, but typically have just under 100, only picked as it was the last aircraft type I flew on), your argument is not going to work, as the next flight physically doesn't have the capacity, even if no seats are sold.

The consideration that you will therefore need to take will be as follows: 

• The aircraft type you were originally scheduled to fly on with Ryanair (certainly a 189 seat 737-800)
• The aircraft type you flew with the other carrier (I can't answer this one, as we don't have enough details) and how full the flight was.
• The actual conditions you received with the other carrier (including whether additional checked baggage was included vs what you booked with Ryanair. Whether you used this allowance or not is IMO irrelevant)
• Ryanair's availability of spare aircraft and if necessary crew to position that aircraft from another base to operate the flight before the flight Ryanair offered you, taking into account the other passenger provisions above, and working out whether the cost would have been reasonable (Note: It probably wouldn't be). Just because there is a plane on the ground doesn't mean that there is a crew available to fly it, especially at small bases, as EASA flight time limits are finite.
• Your argument of being able to fly into an alternative airport is also not going to hold water. I'm not sure where you were going, but many airports are slot controlled. An airline that can't land at Luton for whatever reason (knowing this before departure) can't file a flightplan to land at Heathrow (or Gatwick, or Stansted) unless they have a slot available (an emergency situation is generally another matter). If it was a non-Ryanair airport, there will be no fee contract, no handling contract and no fuelling contract, which is naturally a very large logistical problem.

I'm not saying that you don't have a claim with Ryanair, and as many here will note, I very rarely defend them, however even though there are specific provisions for Ryanair to have to answer the above questions and prove they couldn't do more, the above points are where your argument likely will come unstuck, as it's likely they will be able to prove one or more of the points above against you.

7kambarys

CKhalvashi said:

7kambarys said:

CKhalvashi said:

What are you actually trying to achieve through the courts?
If you have received a full refund for any usused sectors on that booking (any different bookings you have no entitlement to a refund, the 6 letter/number code needs to be the same), I can't see what more Ryanair can do. Ryanair offered you another flight in 2 days and you chose not to take it, this is going to be difficult for you to claim another airlines fare. I'd consider that the later flight (with Ryanair) and hotel accommodation is a 'reasonable re-routing', especially as you're stating this happened in peak summer, when a spare aircraft likely wasn't available. You were completely entitled to not accept this and avail of a refund.

I want to claim the expenses for another fare. As I have received a refund for unused flight (to which a never agreed), that would be price differences between the flights.
I always wanted to choose 'rerouting to my final destination at the earliest opportunity'. And Ryanair clearly have not offered earliest opportunity. Their offer was their own flights (someday) that very doubtfully would take me to the destination of mine after two days (as there were just three flights per week, and you need to put allmost 200passengers in high season). From my point of view 'earliest opportunity' is next Flight, from Ryanair's point of view - earliest opportunity is only Ryanair's flight.

However that right will be subject to the availability of seats and comparable conditions.

If Ryanair (who operate the 737-800 with 189 seats a piece) have a flight that is 75% full, and the other carrier operated for example the E190 (which have a maximum capacity of 112, but typically have just under 100, only picked as it was the last aircraft type I flew on), your argument is not going to work, as the next flight physically doesn't have the capacity, even if no seats are sold.

The consideration that you will therefore need to take will be as follows: 

• The aircraft type you were originally scheduled to fly on with Ryanair (certainly a 189 seat 737-800)
• The aircraft type you flew with the other carrier (I can't answer this one, as we don't have enough details) and how full the flight was.
• The actual conditions you received with the other carrier (including whether additional checked baggage was included vs what you booked with Ryanair. Whether you used this allowance or not is IMO irrelevant)
• Ryanair's availability of spare aircraft and if necessary crew to position that aircraft from another base to operate the flight before the flight Ryanair offered you, taking into account the other passenger provisions above, and working out whether the cost would have been reasonable (Note: It probably wouldn't be). Just because there is a plane on the ground doesn't mean that there is a crew available to fly it, especially at small bases, as EASA flight time limits are finite.
• Your argument of being able to fly into an alternative airport is also not going to hold water. I'm not sure where you were going, but many airports are slot controlled. An airline that can't land at Luton for whatever reason (knowing this before departure) can't file a flightplan to land at Heathrow (or Gatwick, or Stansted) unless they have a slot available (an emergency situation is generally another matter). If it was a non-Ryanair airport, there will be no fee contract, no handling contract and no fuelling contract, which is naturally a very large logistical problem.

I'm not saying that you don't have a claim with Ryanair, and as many here will note, I very rarely defend them, however even though there are specific provisions for Ryanair to have to answer the above questions and prove they couldn't do more, the above points are where your argument likely will come unstuck, as it's likely they will be able to prove one or more of the points above against you.

CKhalvashi said:

7kambarys said:

CKhalvashi said:

What are you actually trying to achieve through the courts?
If you have received a full refund for any usused sectors on that booking (any different bookings you have no entitlement to a refund, the 6 letter/number code needs to be the same), I can't see what more Ryanair can do. Ryanair offered you another flight in 2 days and you chose not to take it, this is going to be difficult for you to claim another airlines fare. I'd consider that the later flight (with Ryanair) and hotel accommodation is a 'reasonable re-routing', especially as you're stating this happened in peak summer, when a spare aircraft likely wasn't available. You were completely entitled to not accept this and avail of a refund.

I want to claim the expenses for another fare. As I have received a refund for unused flight (to which a never agreed), that would be price differences between the flights.
I always wanted to choose 'rerouting to my final destination at the earliest opportunity'. And Ryanair clearly have not offered earliest opportunity. Their offer was their own flights (someday) that very doubtfully would take me to the destination of mine after two days (as there were just three flights per week, and you need to put allmost 200passengers in high season). From my point of view 'earliest opportunity' is next Flight, from Ryanair's point of view - earliest opportunity is only Ryanair's flight.

However that right will be subject to the availability of seats and comparable conditions.

If Ryanair (who operate the 737-800 with 189 seats a piece) have a flight that is 75% full, and the other carrier operated for example the E190 (which have a maximum capacity of 112, but typically have just under 100, only picked as it was the last aircraft type I flew on), your argument is not going to work, as the next flight physically doesn't have the capacity, even if no seats are sold.

The consideration that you will therefore need to take will be as follows: 

• The aircraft type you were originally scheduled to fly on with Ryanair (certainly a 189 seat 737-800)
• The aircraft type you flew with the other carrier (I can't answer this one, as we don't have enough details) and how full the flight was.
• The actual conditions you received with the other carrier (including whether additional checked baggage was included vs what you booked with Ryanair. Whether you used this allowance or not is IMO irrelevant)
• Ryanair's availability of spare aircraft and if necessary crew to position that aircraft from another base to operate the flight before the flight Ryanair offered you, taking into account the other passenger provisions above, and working out whether the cost would have been reasonable (Note: It probably wouldn't be). Just because there is a plane on the ground doesn't mean that there is a crew available to fly it, especially at small bases, as EASA flight time limits are finite.
• Your argument of being able to fly into an alternative airport is also not going to hold water. I'm not sure where you were going, but many airports are slot controlled. An airline that can't land at Luton for whatever reason (knowing this before departure) can't file a flightplan to land at Heathrow (or Gatwick, or Stansted) unless they have a slot available (an emergency situation is generally another matter). If it was a non-Ryanair airport, there will be no fee contract, no handling contract and no fuelling contract, which is naturally a very large logistical problem.

I'm not saying that you don't have a claim with Ryanair, and as many here will note, I very rarely defend them, however even though there are specific provisions for Ryanair to have to answer the above questions and prove they couldn't do more, the above points are where your argument likely will come unstuck, as it's likely they will be able to prove one or more of the points above against you.

The considerations are serious, and they should prove some of them. Sadly. Although my claim is sent, and I'm still waiting for the judgment since March. Is it a common thing during the pandemics to wait 9months for the court to give judgment?

CKhalvashi

7kambarys said:

CKhalvashi said:

7kambarys said:

CKhalvashi said:

What are you actually trying to achieve through the courts?
If you have received a full refund for any usused sectors on that booking (any different bookings you have no entitlement to a refund, the 6 letter/number code needs to be the same), I can't see what more Ryanair can do. Ryanair offered you another flight in 2 days and you chose not to take it, this is going to be difficult for you to claim another airlines fare. I'd consider that the later flight (with Ryanair) and hotel accommodation is a 'reasonable re-routing', especially as you're stating this happened in peak summer, when a spare aircraft likely wasn't available. You were completely entitled to not accept this and avail of a refund.

I want to claim the expenses for another fare. As I have received a refund for unused flight (to which a never agreed), that would be price differences between the flights.
I always wanted to choose 'rerouting to my final destination at the earliest opportunity'. And Ryanair clearly have not offered earliest opportunity. Their offer was their own flights (someday) that very doubtfully would take me to the destination of mine after two days (as there were just three flights per week, and you need to put allmost 200passengers in high season). From my point of view 'earliest opportunity' is next Flight, from Ryanair's point of view - earliest opportunity is only Ryanair's flight.

However that right will be subject to the availability of seats and comparable conditions.

If Ryanair (who operate the 737-800 with 189 seats a piece) have a flight that is 75% full, and the other carrier operated for example the E190 (which have a maximum capacity of 112, but typically have just under 100, only picked as it was the last aircraft type I flew on), your argument is not going to work, as the next flight physically doesn't have the capacity, even if no seats are sold.

The consideration that you will therefore need to take will be as follows: 

• The aircraft type you were originally scheduled to fly on with Ryanair (certainly a 189 seat 737-800)
• The aircraft type you flew with the other carrier (I can't answer this one, as we don't have enough details) and how full the flight was.
• The actual conditions you received with the other carrier (including whether additional checked baggage was included vs what you booked with Ryanair. Whether you used this allowance or not is IMO irrelevant)
• Ryanair's availability of spare aircraft and if necessary crew to position that aircraft from another base to operate the flight before the flight Ryanair offered you, taking into account the other passenger provisions above, and working out whether the cost would have been reasonable (Note: It probably wouldn't be). Just because there is a plane on the ground doesn't mean that there is a crew available to fly it, especially at small bases, as EASA flight time limits are finite.
• Your argument of being able to fly into an alternative airport is also not going to hold water. I'm not sure where you were going, but many airports are slot controlled. An airline that can't land at Luton for whatever reason (knowing this before departure) can't file a flightplan to land at Heathrow (or Gatwick, or Stansted) unless they have a slot available (an emergency situation is generally another matter). If it was a non-Ryanair airport, there will be no fee contract, no handling contract and no fuelling contract, which is naturally a very large logistical problem.

I'm not saying that you don't have a claim with Ryanair, and as many here will note, I very rarely defend them, however even though there are specific provisions for Ryanair to have to answer the above questions and prove they couldn't do more, the above points are where your argument likely will come unstuck, as it's likely they will be able to prove one or more of the points above against you.

CKhalvashi said:

7kambarys said:

CKhalvashi said:

What are you actually trying to achieve through the courts?
If you have received a full refund for any usused sectors on that booking (any different bookings you have no entitlement to a refund, the 6 letter/number code needs to be the same), I can't see what more Ryanair can do. Ryanair offered you another flight in 2 days and you chose not to take it, this is going to be difficult for you to claim another airlines fare. I'd consider that the later flight (with Ryanair) and hotel accommodation is a 'reasonable re-routing', especially as you're stating this happened in peak summer, when a spare aircraft likely wasn't available. You were completely entitled to not accept this and avail of a refund.

I want to claim the expenses for another fare. As I have received a refund for unused flight (to which a never agreed), that would be price differences between the flights.
I always wanted to choose 'rerouting to my final destination at the earliest opportunity'. And Ryanair clearly have not offered earliest opportunity. Their offer was their own flights (someday) that very doubtfully would take me to the destination of mine after two days (as there were just three flights per week, and you need to put allmost 200passengers in high season). From my point of view 'earliest opportunity' is next Flight, from Ryanair's point of view - earliest opportunity is only Ryanair's flight.

However that right will be subject to the availability of seats and comparable conditions.

If Ryanair (who operate the 737-800 with 189 seats a piece) have a flight that is 75% full, and the other carrier operated for example the E190 (which have a maximum capacity of 112, but typically have just under 100, only picked as it was the last aircraft type I flew on), your argument is not going to work, as the next flight physically doesn't have the capacity, even if no seats are sold.

The consideration that you will therefore need to take will be as follows: 

• The aircraft type you were originally scheduled to fly on with Ryanair (certainly a 189 seat 737-800)
• The aircraft type you flew with the other carrier (I can't answer this one, as we don't have enough details) and how full the flight was.
• The actual conditions you received with the other carrier (including whether additional checked baggage was included vs what you booked with Ryanair. Whether you used this allowance or not is IMO irrelevant)
• Ryanair's availability of spare aircraft and if necessary crew to position that aircraft from another base to operate the flight before the flight Ryanair offered you, taking into account the other passenger provisions above, and working out whether the cost would have been reasonable (Note: It probably wouldn't be). Just because there is a plane on the ground doesn't mean that there is a crew available to fly it, especially at small bases, as EASA flight time limits are finite.
• Your argument of being able to fly into an alternative airport is also not going to hold water. I'm not sure where you were going, but many airports are slot controlled. An airline that can't land at Luton for whatever reason (knowing this before departure) can't file a flightplan to land at Heathrow (or Gatwick, or Stansted) unless they have a slot available (an emergency situation is generally another matter). If it was a non-Ryanair airport, there will be no fee contract, no handling contract and no fuelling contract, which is naturally a very large logistical problem.

I'm not saying that you don't have a claim with Ryanair, and as many here will note, I very rarely defend them, however even though there are specific provisions for Ryanair to have to answer the above questions and prove they couldn't do more, the above points are where your argument likely will come unstuck, as it's likely they will be able to prove one or more of the points above against you.

The considerations are serious, and they should prove some of them. Sadly. Although my claim is sent, and I'm still waiting for the judgment since March. Is it a common thing during the pandemics to wait 9months for the court to give judgment?

At this time, a 9 month wait is probably reasonable.

There is a huge backlog in UK courts, and I'd assume in many EU countries this is the case now.

Inchworm

7kambarys
We are also going through the European Small Claims Process at Swords Court with Ryanair.  We submitted form A in August 2020.  We have still not received their answer form, which should have arrived within 58 working days.  We are now well over 100 working days on.  We have had a phone call from their lawyer and then a letter written on same day I phoned the court to ask about the delay.  So for us it is both the court and Ryanair who are outside the timeframe.
The court informed me that they did have a big backlog due to Covid.
Ryanair have moved from refusing us even vouchers when we could not fly due to shielding advice, to now offering vouchers.  Unfortunately vouchers to fly are no good for us, we now realise, as my husband is clinically extremely vulnerable to Covid and unlikely to develop a good immune response to the vaccine.  We are asking for a cash refund instead now.
I have seen some government advice on people in our situation to say that the original contract may now be considered 'frustrated' and if so we are eligible for a full cash refund.
We have written back to Ryanair and asked that the court continue with proceedings if there is no response by this weekend.  I included a full timeline of the process for both the court and Ryanair's lawyer in this email.
I am unsure if this is the right way to approach things, or whether I should do more - like you 7kambarys, but thought it might be helpful for you to know that other people are delayed also.
Good luck with you claim.

Caromacx

Hoping for some advice please. 

Due to return from Malaga to Prestwick on 30/9 at 9pm with RA. Yesterday (20/9) they sent notification of a reschedule, with the new time being 11.45am on 4/10. 

Have requested refund for return flights and booked alternative with EJ, travelling a day late and to a different airport. Mounting costs of airport transfers, extended car hire, airport parking etc. 

Will I be able to claim compensation from RA? I’ve already requested a refund, should I cancel the refund request? I’ve also applied on RA website for the EU261 compensation form. Should I do anything else? 

Any advice much appreciated. 

BogBob

Hello! I've signed up to the forum specifically because of my experience with Ryanair. I had a flight with them 3 years ago with a 5 hour delay. They have ignored me... and ignored me... and ignored me. So I put in a court claim. My hearing date is next week, so it might be a bit late to change much now - I was just putting the final touches to the skeleton argument when I found this forum.

BogBob

Sorry, sent that early.

Just putting the final touches to the skeleton argument. If anyone (Dr Watson?) has any cases that form a precedent for costs that would be very helpful, or any other advice. In contrast maybe to most cases, Ryanair have admitted that they owe me compensation - but now they're saying they don't have to pay the court fees. Despite ignoring all my emails and letters (for two years) and only replying after I issued the claim...