Flight delay and cancellation compensation, Thomas Cook ONLY

Mark2spark

Chris_Denman wrote: »

We also were refused food/drink from the duty manager.

...if you add all this up, it comes to less than 3 hours delay. Of course over three hours, compensation may be given.

1) check the notice of change. If they changed flight times and gave you 2 weeks and 1 second of notice, then it's in the T & C's, there's no comeback. But less than 2 weeks notice comes under the EU 261 Regulation.

2) You have a right to care once you go over 2 hours delay. Forward receipts for meals and refreshments (no alcohol) for a refund.

3) Doesn't matter what the delay in departure is, it's the arrival time that brings EU261 into play. 3 hours delay in arriving at final destination. (which should be the gate of disembarkation btw, not wheels touching the runway at 250 mph )

Vauban

Mark2spark wrote: »

3) Doesn't matter what the delay in departure is, it's the arrival time that brings EU261 into play. 3 hours delay in arriving at final destination. (which should be the gate of disembarkation btw, not wheels touching the runway at 250 mph )

Is that last point correct? I had always thought flight arrival times were measured at wheels down.

Mark2spark

It's debatable.
Firms like flightstats record the gate times, not wheels down.
But if it's tight you can bet your bottom dollar the airlines will opt for wheels down timing.

Chris_Denman

Hi Mark2Spark

Your points are exactly what I am talking about - they have made small changes two weeks prior knowing full well that the actuall delay was going to be 3+ hours.

In other words, why did we not get an amended flight time +3 hours in the first place? Instead we get +1 hour and a wait at the airport.

I think we all know why - I for one would have cancelled the trip/flights as the top priority for me was to get the kids to their destination at a reasonable hour.

Ask yourself this: If you got a flight time changed two weeks prior by one hour, would you care? If it was 3+ hours two weeks prior, what would you think of that? For certain, families would not be happy for sure!

It would be great if any whistle blowers out there are aware of such practices by airlines?

It would be easy for an airline to see their flight patterns/schedules weeks in advance and spot problems - and tweak things to work in their favour.

I just find it hard to believe that we had both flight amended and delayed in exactly the same manner. Too much of a coincidence.

Chris_Denman

Found out more information about the outgoing flight:

Time
Date UTC LGW HER Source Event Data Updated
Jun 19 02:13 3:13 AM 5:13 AM Schedules RecordCreated
Jun 21 02:37 3:37 AM 5:37 AM Airport Time Adjustment
Estimated Gate Departure Changed To 06/21/13 06:00 PM
Jun 21 15:17 4:17 PM 6:17 PM Airport Time Adjustment
Estimated Gate Departure Changed From 06/21/13 06:00 PM To 06/21/13 05:27 PM
Jun 21 15:37 4:37 PM 6:37 PM Airport Time Adjustment
Estimated Gate Departure Changed From 06/21/13 05:27 PM To 06/21/13 05:30 PM
Jun 21 15:58 4:58 PM 6:58 PM Airport Time Adjustment
Estimated Gate Departure Changed From 06/21/13 05:30 PM To 06/21/13 06:00 PM
Jun 21 17:07 6:07 PM 8:07 PM Airport STATUS-Active
Actual Gate Departure Changed To 06/21/13 05:59 PM
Status Changed From Scheduled To Active
Jun 21 17:17 6:17 PM 8:17 PM Airport Time Adjustment
Actual Runway Departure Changed To 06/21/13 06:06 PM
Jun 22 10:09 11:09 AM 1:09 PM FlightHistory STATUS-Unknown
Status Changed From Active To Unknown


Basically, at around 2am it was fully known about the delay many many hours later.

You will also see there is no record of arrival time for some reason.

How did they know so far in advance on the day that the flight was going to be delayed? We were led to believe that there was a technical issue.

Chris_Denman

Here's coming back:

Time
Date UTC HER LGW Source Event Data Updated
Jun 26 00:33 3:33 AM 1:33 AM Schedules RecordCreated
Jun 28 13:50 4:50 PM 2:50 PM Airport Time Adjustment
Estimated Gate Arrival Changed To 06/29/13 02:50 AM
Jun 28 22:33 1:33 AM 11:33 PM Airport Time Adjustment
Estimated Gate Arrival Changed From 06/29/13 02:50 AM To 06/29/13 02:46 AM
Jun 29 01:20 4:20 AM 2:20 AM Airport Time Adjustment
Estimated Gate Arrival Changed From 06/29/13 02:46 AM To 06/29/13 02:35 AM
Jun 29 01:27 4:27 AM 2:27 AM Airport Time Adjustment
Estimated Gate Arrival Changed From 06/29/13 02:35 AM To 06/29/13 02:40 AM
Jun 29 01:38 4:38 AM 2:38 AM Airport Time Adjustment
Estimated Gate Arrival Changed From 06/29/13 02:40 AM To 06/29/13 02:39 AM
Jun 29 01:48 4:48 AM 2:48 AM Airport STATUS-Landed
Actual Runway Arrival Changed To 06/29/13 02:39 AM
Status Changed From Scheduled To Landed

Again, known many many hours in advance. Also, we were given no notification at the Hotel. With a disabled child it would have been nice for TC to let us wait at the Hotel rather than have the children lay on tables etc.

Vauban

Chris_Denman wrote: »

Hi Mark2Spark

Your points are exactly what I am talking about - they have made small changes two weeks prior knowing full well that the actuall delay was going to be 3+ hours.

In other words, why did we not get an amended flight time +3 hours in the first place? Instead we get +1 hour and a wait at the airport.

I think we all know why - I for one would have cancelled the trip/flights as the top priority for me was to get the kids to their destination at a reasonable hour.

Ask yourself this: If you got a flight time changed two weeks prior by one hour, would you care? If it was 3+ hours two weeks prior, what would you think of that? For certain, families would not be happy for sure!

It would be great if any whistle blowers out there are aware of such practices by airlines?

It would be easy for an airline to see their flight patterns/schedules weeks in advance and spot problems - and tweak things to work in their favour.

I just find it hard to believe that we had both flight amended and delayed in exactly the same manner. Too much of a coincidence.

The only flaw in your conspiracy theory is motivation. Why would the airline do this? Because if they moved the flight by three hours two weeks earlier, they would still not be obligated to offer you any compensation: it is in their right to do so. You are right that you might have been offered the option of cancellation, but given you were so close to the holiday departure date, all other flights would have been extremely expensive: I can see why you in your circumstances might have cancelled, but I'm willing to bet 99% of folk would not.

Of course, as far as the dealing with the airlines is concerned, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!

Mr_sold

Asenath1 wrote: »

Have been reading through the threads for sometime and have found them very informative - so thanks to everyone who has posted so far.
We were scheduled to fly on TCX0139 Dabolim (Goa) to Manchester on 04/02/2013 - at 02.15. We were in the premier seats and were waiting on the concourse to board the flight for nearly an hour when we were told the flight was delayed due to the landing lights not working and the back up system also failing and the pilot had made the decision not to fly the plane. After several hours of tannoy announcements stating the flight was delayed we were informed at approx 06.30 (local time) that the flight was cancelled and then chaos descended. Eventually we were provided with a hotel over an hours drive away and meals (although we were not informed re the use of telephones) before our flight was rescheduled at 18.00hrs later that day. On our return to the airport we were told that the parts for the flight had been at the airport before we had even left for the hotels and had been replaced but due to the airport being military, civilian flights were not authorised between certain hours (which by the way are different to the times Dabolim Airport info states on its website) and therefore was the reason for the longer delay. We eventually left Dabolim at 18.05 for Manchester. On our arrival we were furnished with a letter from TC claiming an "unforeseen operationally significant defect which required rectification prior to further travel". TC then go on to say how we should contact our own insurance companies for any compensation!
Needless to say I will be sending our claim in for our travelling party.
I am thinking we should be claiming compensation for our delay but it has been suggested we should be looking at a full refund because they actually cancelled the flight. Am I wrong in presuming that as we accepted the flight (not sure how else we would have got home!) we are only entitled to the compensation element?
I'm also aware of how much the language and reasons for delay are different to recent posts - is this something that has changed since the ruling against TC in January
I'll keep everyone updated as I go - fingers crossed!

How is this claim going ? We also claiming compensation for this flight,TC reply was NO basically, we now waiting a reply from CAA

Mr_sold

How is this claim going ? We also trying to claim for this flight.

maghater

Well Mr. Sold and Asenath1, you both probably realise what a wonderful company TC are, and how they will go to great lengths to avoid its obligations, and why anyone books with them more than once, must remain one of the great unsolved mysteries of the universe. If you are delayed by more than 4 hours on a flight of more than 1500km you are entitled to 600 Euros per passenger, UNLESS the airline can prove extraordinary circumstances. Obviously Thomas Cook will claim anything is an extraordinary circumstance, so this is when the fun starts. If you read EC 261/2004 (in the FAQs) look at para (recital 14) this lists some examples which an airline may use as examples of extraordinary circumstances, I don't think it mentions aircraft landing lights in that list. Secondly the Sturgeon judgement (also linked in the FAQs) in the ruling (final three paragraphs), para 3 more or less states that technical problems cannot be classed as ecs unless they are not inherent in the normal exercise of the aircarrier. If I was you, I would copy the template letter in the FAQs to start the ball rolling, and prepare for a long hard fight.