Negotiation In Marriage

Brighton_belle

Eager_Elephant wrote: »

He also mentioned last night that I am too controlling etc which is why I have mentioned it.

Ah! Is this where your self knowledge comes from - is it actually him deciding you are controlling rather than you? If this is the case, it's a classic controllers technique to confuddle and induce guilt and confusion.
I wouldn't call it controlling for example to try and deal with a husband's massive and inappropriate over spending that was crippling you a a couple financially.

splishsplash

Eager_Elephant wrote: »

Originally I came on here for ideas about negotiation in marriage - DH and I had a discussion last night about decisions and we both know we need to negotiate but if that negotiation does not change anything then what happens. Negotiation means reaching a level of compromise in decision making that you're both happy with. From what you say, you two have no problem getting to this point, the problem arises because the negotiation is empty and your husband then goes on to do what he wants anyway - i.e. the goats, the cheating etc.
We have had counselling before and all the counsellor said was to negotiate but I wanted other opinions on how negotiations work in other marriages.
He also mentioned last night that I am too controlling etc which is why I have mentioned it. He's playing you, as you're learning.

Now it looks like it is full circle and actually I am the one being controlled but it was not until I posted and people replied did I realise that this is true. It's good that you're getting a fresh perspective on things.

I was after ideas on how to manage our marriage to make it easier to live with. I don't know what you mean by that - do you mean you are resigned to things continuing the way they are, and you just want advice on coping mechanisms? In order to have a better marriage, both of you need to change.

I do want something else out of life but I am not in a position to leave yet - I know I am daft to worry about guilt but this is how I have always been. It is not an easy thing to do, I know, but you're as well placed to leave now as you will ever be.

What I really want is a lovely husband who treats me well etc and if I can change my current husband that would be great but I don't think it is going to happen. I am not sure if my husband even wants to change. Therein lies the rub, sadly.

I have tried to break the destructive relationship we have but it has not worked and now I am beginning to forget exactly what the counsellor said so any books I can read on the subject would be great. Again, I don't understand - any books on what? Being accepting of behaviour you cannot change, or how to get out of a manipulative relationship?

I do not wish to negotiate my marriage to stop him committing EI, I want to know how negotiations work in other marriages where both sides think their decision is right. Negotiating means working towards the best outcome you can aim for, and settling at a level you're happy with. That really isn't what the problem is here though. It's his blatant disregard of your completed negotiations. That's a different ballgame altogether and not similar to how most other people deal with each other, hence the warnings that you're being manipulated.

When I talk about EI this is because he has never actually physically cheated on me or actually met anyone off the internet etc. Are you reading what you're typing? Do you see how very, very sad that is? How does this behaviour do anything other than demean and undermine you? Instead what he has done is flirted and texted in secret and built up a fantasy life for himself. Since Facebook it has mainly been flirty messages - no where near as bad as before. Please do not make excuses for him. Really, just don't.

You need to decide exactly what you're looking for, which is why I asked the question before - you're not really looking for anything concrete, by the sound of it, you're just aware that your current situation is less than ideal.

I also agree with others who have said your daughter should not be asked to have an opinion about whether you stay together or not - that is not appropriate. She has enough to be dealing with by the sound of it, she doesn't need to feel she has any responsibility for adult decisions.

Good luck with your life OP, I hope 2013 brings you peace and happiness. Just think about how you'd like things to be by next New Year's Eve, and how you're going to get yourself to that place.
I would hate to think of you posting 'well, another year done, only seven more to go':(

MrsDrink

Eager_Elephant wrote: »

Originally I came on here for ideas about negotiation in marriage - DH and I had a discussion last night about decisions and we both know we need to negotiate but if that negotiation does not change anything then what happens.
We have had counselling before and all the counsellor said was to negotiate but I wanted other opinions on how negotiations work in other marriages.

Have a google of 'win-win'; 'win-lose' and 'lose-lose' negotiations. At the moment it sounds like when you're 'negotiating' it falls under the 'win-lose' category (you win; he feels he's losing) which causes him to say sod it and go against the agreement. I'm not sure we can guide you on how to get a 'win-win' outcome; if that is even possible bearing in mind the level of investment he puts into the negotiations. But just a word of warning - compromising could become 'lose-lose' where neither of you get what you want or are truly happy with the outcome.

DevilsAdvocate1

Eager_Elephant wrote: »

Originally I came on here for ideas about negotiation in marriage - DH and I had a discussion last night about decisions and we both know we need to negotiate but if that negotiation does not change anything then what happens.
We have had counselling before and all the counsellor said was to negotiate but I wanted other opinions on how negotiations work in other marriages.
He also mentioned last night that I am too controlling etc which is why I have mentioned it.

Now it looks like it is full circle and actually I am the one being controlled but it was not until I posted and people replied did I realise that this is true.

I was after ideas on how to manage our marriage to make it easier to live with.

I do want something else out of life but I am not in a position to leave yet - I know I am daft to worry about guilt but this is how I have always been.

What I really want is a lovely husband who treats me well etc and if I can change my current husband that would be great but I don't think it is going to happen. I am not sure if my husband even wants to change.

I have tried to break the destructive relationship we have but it has not worked and now I am beginning to forget exactly what the counsellor said so any books I can read on the subject would be great.

I do not wish to negotiate my marriage to stop him committing EI, I want to know how negotiations work in other marriages where both sides think their decision is right.

When I talk about EI this is because he has never actually physically cheated on me or actually met anyone off the internet etc. Instead what he has done is flirted and texted in secret and built up a fantasy life for himself. Since Facebook it has mainly been flirty messages - no where near as bad as before.

This is what I am struggling with - I look at my marriage and I don't think we do negotiate. So for example, I mentioned the other day that I would like to get the kitchen floor replaced in 2013 and DH said that was a good idea as he hates the current floor. If he hadn't thought it was a good idea I would have let it drop.

A couple of months ago, I got drunk (very rare for me) and bought flights to Florida for next summer. DH took the mickey out of me but seems happy that we are going. So again, no negotiation.

Maybe if you are having to negotiate then it means you are not a good match for each other?

Is there anyway of changing the situation so your life is not a big negotiation? Could you look at how you word the things you do? Could you agree with him and then see what happens? Perhaps if you agree he will let the matter drop because its the winning which is important to him?

Good luck.

coolcait

This is such a complicated story - with a developing cast

- the current players are your OH, your daughter from the current relationship (who has views on what your relationship status should be), your son from a previous relationship, your DH's step-father (DH's mother's first husband) who currently lives with you, your landlords (who are also your daughter's friend's parents), and your own friend (who blames your OH for issues to do with her wedding). And the goats.

Past players are: the Relate counsellor, and the following relatives of your OH: his deceased father, his alcoholic mother (now also deceased), the step-brother (post 15) who abused him. This may be the same person as one of the half-brothers mentioned in post 40 - or your OH may have been abused by two close relatives. The other half-brother is an alcoholic. There is also a half-sister.

Then there was your brother, your family - who would take in your OH if you kicked him out - and two geese.

Apologies if I have missed anyone out.

Eager_Elephant wrote: »

...

We have been to Relate years ago now and the Counsellor said that no one has to win an argument or feel like they have won over a decision I agree with the Counsellor but surely one person will always get their way and therefore they have won. I don't believe that this approach is at all healthy. Would you even have posted if you felt that you had 'won' the most recent skirmish?

[You put your view forward]
I thought DH agreed with this but it seems he didn't ... As far as he is concerned he could make that decision as he had solved all my cons on the decision

I think that I should have had the final decision ...

My view? It's a bit early to close the books on the idea that you might be the controlling partner. What you describe as 'negotiating' might have felt like 'browbeating' to your partner.

And any male poster who had used the phrase "I think that I should have had the final decision because I see things rationally whereas she sees something she wants and goes to get it" might have met with slightly less agreement...

Now, let's take the problem with your friend. Would she feel any different about your husband's actions if you told us what you have said here?

Eager_Elephant wrote: »

...
My husband said he would come to the wedding regardless of how he felt as he knew it was important as me and DD were bridesmaids. I had tld my husband that if he was not well I would take my sister as my plus one so as not to mess up the table plan.

I did not convey this to my friend and she thought that I would not go if my husband was ill and therefore she would be down 2 bridesmaids.

My husband did attend the wedding and had a bit of a boogie (I love dancing) and then we went back to the hotel. He then suffered intensely for a whole week.

My friend said that clearly he was not that ill as he had come to the wedding and had a dance whereas she felt he should have gone to a quiter room or not come

I basically forced him to go so her wedding was not spoilt.

I told her recently that I was sorry that he went and I made him as clearly she did not appreciate the effort he put in.

Surely you should have apologised to your friend for not telling her that:

"My husband says he will come to the wedding regardless of how he feels, as he knows it is important as me and DD are bridesmaids. If he is not well enough, I will take my sister as my plus one so as not to mess up the table plan. I have told him this".

Then she might have appreciated his effort in turning up. I think it's a bit early to talk about dumping her, when it was you who didn't communicate with her, and you're hiding behind your OH, while he gets the blame.

All of those factors make me wonder about your declarations that your OH's emotional infidelity.

Is he really emotionally unfaithful? Or is it normal internet chitchat, which you perceive differently? If he only posts on the internet when you're not around, is that because it's the only time he has chance to do so (free from control)?

We only get one person's point of view on an internet storyline. That means that it's impossible to say who is truly the controlling person in your relationship.

It is possible to note that you are describing a very dysfunctional relationship; one which makes you unhappy; and one which you have a bookful of excuses for not leaving.

None of which are insurmountable. Should you choose to leave..

Otherwise, you're asking us to find a sticking plaster for your relationship - when we can't know for sure where the wound actually is, or if a sticking plaster is adequate to treat it.

Eager_Elephant

Thanks everyone for posting on my thread - it has been very enlightening.

I do intend to change things but it has come as a bit of a shock to find out that I am the one being controlled and I need to get my head around this.

Although I have called it EI, I do not call it that with my husband - I just used that term as I thought people might understand it better. Previously it has definitely been EI but since Facebook it has been chit-chat that turns to flirting and inappropriate comments - he sees nothing wrong with this until I point it out.
He uses the internet on his phone all the time - home and work so I do not control him over his use - I have just noticed a pattern that when I am not home he starts all the flirting etc.

I will see if I can get in contact with Relate or another counsellor because I think I need help on my own.

74jax

15 years from now, your DD is in a similar relationship to you. She has her life ahead of her but is miserable day to day. You can see this and ask why why she doesn't get out. But she then replies she thinks this is normal, what you did, all she knows.............

ecgirl07

Eager_Elephant wrote: »

Although I have called it EI, I do not call it that with my husband - I just used that term as I thought people might understand it better. Previously it has definitely been EI but since Facebook it has been chit-chat that turns to flirting and inappropriate comments - he sees nothing wrong with this until I point it out.
He uses the internet on his phone all the time - home and work so I do not control him over his use - I have just noticed a pattern that when I am not home he starts all the flirting etc.

do you and he flirt? if he is a flirty guy then you have to trust him not to take it further and just realise he is a flirty kind of person (although the making up stories is a bit weird). Maybe if you and he flirt with each other he would not have to with others?

Errata

Only practical advice from me. You can't afford to feed the free goats which he has fec.klessly accepted. Give them away to someone else.

belfastgirl23

I am worried that you are casting yourself as a victim in all of this OP and that this is dangerous because what it means in the end is that you are powerless.

It's fair enough to want to stay in the marriage but own this. Don't come up with a list of excuses. Every single day you are deciding to stay in the marriage. This is down to you. So either make the best of it or leave.

Making the best of it means standing up and being counted. If there's something your husband is doing that is unacceptable to you, there needs to be consequences of some sort. In your shoes, if he came home with the goats I would be very very clear that they are entirely his business and I would have nothing to do with them. And I would stick to that until and unless he explicitly asked for help. I know they're living creatures and this is difficult (and I guess if I had to I would sneakily make sure they had enough water but would never admit it). I would not be grumpy or anything else about this, just very matter of fact. 'I'm fine with you having the goats but they are your goats and I don't have time to look after them so it's up to you'. And repeat ad nauseum. The critical thing is though not to give in on it (or never be seen to give in on it). You think the negotiation is over now and he has won. But the negotiation is still ongoing. That's the thing about negotiation actually, it continues and that's how no one wins or loses sometimes.

You also need to think about what the vital things are and what the things are that you can give in on. You need to be realistic about yourself and your own shortcomings. There must be some areas where your DH also has something to contribute.

As for your DD, honestly I feel a bit cross about that. She knows things are bad presumably. You have talked to her about leaving your husband but not followed through. How unsettling is that for her? How does she feel every time you have a fight? Of course she said no, what were you expecting? I don't think you have been acting in her best interests to be honest, and I think you are using her as an excuse to avoid confronting issues. I know none of this is on purpose and you of course want the best for her but is this really the best thing for her? Sitting listening to the arguments and waiting for the day to come when her whole life will be turned upside down?

I suppose what I'm saying is either commit or get out. You're in the worst possible position now with one foot in the door and one foot out the door. Things are not going to be different in 8 years time except you will be older. And sadder. So decide now. is this marriage worth fighting for or is it beyond saving? If it's worth fighting for then think about what it is that you need and make your expectations clear. Make the consequences clear as well. Tell your husband that you are very unhappy and need there to be some changes. Don't make it a big rant or ramble, tell him the three things that he needs to think about. Ask him what it is that he thinks needs to change. And keep talking. Not nagging, not fighting, talking. Some things will be very hard to hear. Some things will be very hard to say. But if you do want to save your relationship this is the work you have to put in.

Of course you can leave too.