Living together - financial arguments

margaretclare

Hi Cath

I can only tell you how it looks to us.

When B came here at the end of a second disastrous marriage he was quite clear in saying that he brought nothing with him - was 62, had health problems, debts from the marriage, no money, no job, no home and no prospects - all he had was an old car, his computer and a few clothes. He didn't ask for anything from me, but what he did say was that if he got the chance to work he would 'work his socks off for me because I treated him as a person and didn't take him for granted'.

Both of us regard that as highly important - never taking each other for granted. And what you describe, making breakfast for his kids, clearing up, washing etc while all he did was take the kids to the park and microwave a frozen pizza - that's taking you for granted. Anyway, to return to what I was saying.

A long time ago I wanted to put B on to the deeds as joint owner, and he always refused, saying he 'wasn't here for what he could get'. He just wanted a happy and contented home life, and he thinks that for an older man especially, love and affection are more important than anything. Also being able to talk, discuss, converse, and be companions to each other.

When we decided to go down the equity release route, to pay off the existing mortgage, I did finally get him to agree to have the deeds put into joint names. In the 7+ years we've been together he has put a lot into this place, paying £300 a month as his contribution, plus all food and all petrol - things like holidays we share between us. As well as work he's done on the place that I couldn't do - painting, redecorating etc. Although we're an older couple, the question of what percentage to leave to our kids, his 2 and my one, has never arisen. None of them needs anything anyway.

We've made back-to-back wills and eventually this place will be sold, when the equity release mortgage is paid off whatever is left will be split equally between 5 grandchildren, 3 of mine and 2 of his. We look on them as OUR grandkids, and what worries me, Cath, is all this talk of 'his' and 'hers' i.e. these percentages to be left to his kids and what's left to your kids. I just don't like the sound of this - it sounds like an accountant talking rather than someone in love.

When my younger daughter got married in 1993 her husband sold his flat and moved into her starter-home. What he got for his flat was swallowed-up in a year of redundancy, then he got a job, they both worked and tipped-in. There was never any talk of 'his' and 'mine'. When she died in December 2002 his mum and dad said 'the house is still in her name, he'll be out on his ear'. Well, no. Because it was covered by the life assurance attached to her pension fund, so although it had been her name on the deeds for the 9 years they were married, he was covered anyway, the mortgage paid off. There never seemed to be any resentment that it was still in her name, and there wasn't any resentment here either. In a loving relationship I don't think there should be.

I just think this sounds like a very strange way to go about entering into a relationship - to calculate things in percentages and what to leave to his kids. Why is everybody so bothered about 'inheritances' nowadays anyway? Most of our generation had nothing at all left to us and we've done OK by our own efforts. There are far more opportunities and possibilities out there now than ever. I wish I'd been paid an allowance to stay on at school instead of having to leave after 'O' levels at 16. My life would have been a heck of a lot different than it has been, I can tell you.

Best wishes, Cath

Aunty Margaret

rchddap1

85k mortgages on only 16k a year seems a tad high for me. Why won't you quickly take a look at some of the mortgage calculators that are on the internet. Halifax & Nationwide provide one for a start. I'm not convinced that he would be able to get a good mortgage on that salary anyway. At the end of the day if he is paying the mortgage you don't want to be in a suituation where it hasn't been paid and then face the possibility of losing your home.

Either way it doesn't matter. If you aren't comfortable with what he is proposing then don't do it. It doesn't mean that you can't do it later, but when you are ready. For it to work you both have to be 100% happy with what living together permanently means, and its obvious that you are not.

Good luck when you tell him and let us know how it goes.

margaretclare

jellyhead wrote:

i remember when a friend a couple of years ago got together with a single mum a lot of his single friends thought he was being taken for a mug and thought she should be grateful to him for taking on the 'burden' of her daughter and herself. he didn't see it that way of course and is still very happy.

This is a very old-fashioned attitude - that 'taking on' someone else's child is a burden and that the single mum should be 'grateful'.

When my mother got pregnant back in 1934 she was immediately ditched not only by the young guy who 'used' her, but the boy-friend she had at that time also couldn't be seen for dust. And no bloke ever turned up with the vision to see all her good qualities, couldn't see beyond the 'single mum' label (they had much more insulting labels in those days).

Aunty Margaret

jellyhead

i know it's old fashioned, but it's the way men in pubs often talk :-( my mum got together with a divorced man who had kids of his own so it wasn't seen as so one-sided. i think my hubby got a bit of stick though for marrying me - because he was single and i had a child with special needs so wouldn't be working full time. he never saw it that way though. he watched supernanny with me last night and he was gobsmacked that the father had never bathed the 6 month old baby, luckily he sees marriage as an equal partnership and i think cath deserves someone who thinks that way too. the men in the pub don't seem to realise that if he only earns 16k and is already financially supporting his parents and his children he's lucky to be getting a roof over his head - he's the one who's gaining! especially if he can't support himself by getting a place of his own.

Spendless

I think the reason we haven't seen it from bf point of view is due to what you have told us about begrudgingly letting you have £150 a week, wanting wine, offering to pay half towards any baby you have and expecting you to find childcare for it and so on.

I also dislike this talk of % rates and who is being left what, you might out-live one or more of your respective children, become ill and the property need to be sold to pay for a care home, need to take the equity out to fund a pension and so on.

To me if you're going to live together and decide on who eventualy will own what it shouldn't be based on what child gets what in the event of a death.

Just one more question though - why doesn't bf live with his parents (after all he's contributing to their mortgage)?

meanycath

I know he pays £320 a month mortgage on his / his parents house at the moment but he could spread that over 25 years (currently over 13 years) and reduce the repayments. My mortgage is £300 per month over 23 years at the moment. I've worked it out and yes, he could afford both mortgages although it would be tight. I have a self cert mortgage at the moment and we would have to get another self cert mortgage if we put the mortgage into joint names.

I find the calculations and percentages that he has come up with a bit disconcerting too. He is used to running a business and says that he thinks about money every minute of the day - more than sex and food put together (these are his words). He says he just wants to know exactly where he stands, so he can plan for the future.

I do find it difficult that he talks about his children and my son separately. They are a bit older than my son, so they obviously get treated differently. Would I treat his children equally in my will? It does depend on what their father is prepared to do for my son in his will and also when he is alive! My BF has a step son from his marriage who has my BF's surname and calls him Dad and treats him as his father. His natural father has been a bit hit and miss. We have had conversations about what he intends to leave him in his will and initially said nothing as his natural father will leave him everything he has (how he knows this I'm not sure). The lad is leaving school soon and will be working for my BF, you can see that he idolises my BF and he works far harder than my BF's own children and yet, my BF is not sure if he will leave him anything.

I totally agree with the comment about worrying about inheritances though. BF talks about it all the time and it was something that I don't think husband and I discussed once in our 12 years together.

And I'm gutted I missed SuperNanny last night - it's one of my favourite programmes!

meanycath

He doesn't live with his parents because he fights like cat and dog with his Mum (who also works for him). When they were looking at bungalows (his Mum is disabled) to buy in this area - they came to the conclusion that they couldn't afford to buy here. So BF offered to get a mortgage and "buy" 25% of the property for them. This meant that they got the bungalow they wanted and he got a foot on the property ladder. They have a tenants in common agreement and it was agreed that he would not live there (which he wouldn't want to do anyway).

rchddap1

But where are you in his thoughts about money, food etc....? Money of course is important and none of us could survive without it, but it isn't the be all and end all. Why does he need to plan everything out in detail now.....this very second? Planning for the future is a good idea, but where is the enjoyment of being together? What about sorting things out as you go along?

If things would be tight by having two mortgages to pay for he needs to understand that sometimes he won't be able to go to the pub. Or have the tumble dryer on. Or have a bottle of wine. He can't have everything that he wants. Sometimes he might have to forego things so that you can pay both mortgages and the rest of the bills.

I know you've made your decision already, but if you come to re-examine that decision in the future think about what he would say about this. Would he be happy to miss his trip to the pub if money is tight? Or would he demand to go, spend as much as he wants, which then results in debt as you can't pay the bills?

meanycath

I have spoken to him about having to "go without" things and he says he knows that he won't be able to live the life he has been used to and he is prepared for that.

The trouble is what happens when there is a spare £20 and my son needs new school shoes? What gives? The shoes or the pub? I know I would argue it and explain to him that school shoes are more important etc. but should I have to argue it? Should I have to explain myself? I know he would understand and 'come round' but I don't want to have to fight for everything.

I honestly don't believe he would get me in debt as he is so anti-debt himself. He went bankrupt when he was young and has been in prison for fraud so he's learnt the hard way.

elona

It is HIS future that he is thinking about and not yours!.

Am I the only person who finds it a bit worrying that most people in his life seem to work "for" him?

His stepson (who works harder than his own children) and who will work for him - how can he possibly ever leave that job?

Everyone seems to be under his control!

Do not let yourself be fooled that he is "giving " you anything - the boot is on the other foot - he could not possibly afford to live the way he wants by his own efforts.

You would not only only be "keeping him" but be an unpaid servant and employee who could not afford to leave either the job or the relationship.

Slavery has been abolished so please do not condemn yourself to this.