Living together - financial arguments

culpepper

cath this bloke sounds just like my dad:(
Earlier I said he had ,had a previous marriage and 2 daughters my mother knew nothing of till after his death.
My father begged my mother to marry him and cried his eyes out each time she said no but finally she did because she wanted to have kids and he said he did too.
As he was a compulsive gambler he rarely put any money into the marriage and declared bankrupsy at one point(He was a self employed painter and decorator but gave it up) .Mum had had her own money up until they married and even paid for the wedding and honeymoon.
All my childhood my father was waited on hand and foot and he regularly criticized mums spending(jumble sales) and cooking despite her paying for everything with her cleaning money.His contribution to family life was a loud voice and a hard hand.Most of his time was spent in front of the tv.
People thought he was such a nice bloke but then they didnt have to live with him.(One person in public and another in private).

margaretclare

Spendless wrote:

What i keep trying to tell my friend is that she is so desperate to be in a relationship that ANY relationship will do and she starts one up with the first ****head that comes along. She gives herself no space, no time to think things over to work out what she is looking for in life and then try to find a like-minded mate.I am unable to get through to my friend.

It's down to self-esteem - your friend has had messages aimed at her from her earliest days that she 'has to have a man' in her life, she doesn't exist as a worthwhile person unless she has one. Like the terrible old joke about the unmarried older woman (spinster) who kneels down every night to say her prayers but first looks under the bed to see if there's a man there (hoping that there is). And her prayers end with 'A-man Lord, Any-man Lord, A-men'.

Women's Refuges are full of women like this. They've gone from one abusive relationship to another. You would think they'd learn the first time, but no, they go on to another, and another....

The blokes that you describe (your friend's disastrous partners) and countless others like them only survive because of this early learning of low self-esteem that women go through. They get their home comforts and all their needs met at the expense of women's lives, and kids.

Oh for a return to Women's Lib of the 1970s! Why have we slipped back so far?

Aunty Margaret

jellyhead

we could all be doing your bloke a disservice (incidentally had he been drinking when he broke down and begged? i only ask because my friend divorced an alcoholic last year) but i still think you could wait until both divorces are through, you don't have to split up. in the meantime he could find a flat or even move himself and his children when he has them into his parents house, he's effectively paying rent on it. you've been together for a while now, a few more months of waiting won't hurt, especially while you're feeling so unsure. so, if he only just earns enough to give you £150 a week, you would in effect be having all of his money. just nitpicking but if you need that amount just to stop you being out of pocket where are you supposed to find £20 for him to go to the pub from?

meanycath

I think a lot of the posts are correct, I do have low self esteem. I also have a friend who has gone from one bloke to the next as she is so frightened of being on her own. Unfortunately it has offended me so much that I now won't go out with her as when I did she spent all her time chatting up blokes and leaving me sitting looking into my drink! To be fair to me, I have only had relationships with 2 blokes in my whole life.

As for the divorces, both our divorces will simply be a case of dotting the eyes and crossing the tees. My husband and I agreed a settlement figure when we split (I got about 65% of the equity in our family home) and I have since bought my own home with that money. Neither of us intend to go to solicitors and stir anything up - life is too short. The same goes for my BF's divorce - his ex wife wants nothing more from him than a bit of maintance each week for the kids and when they split up he had nothing anyway. I know that potentially our ex partners could change their minds and make the divorce bitter but I really don't believe they will.

What I question from my BF is if he originally was only willing to give me £140 and wanted something for that (ie. a share in the equity) then how happy is he going to be to to hand over all his wages? I know I would feel obliged to ask his permission before I could spend anything. I suppose what I'm saying is I don't mind being poor if I have my independence but being poor and being beholden to someone for the little you have is a different thing.

I did think that it might be a good idea if we both agreed a set amount that would "keep" of our own but the trouble is that I would have to use my "own" money to pay for the car, the phone and to clothe and pay for clubs for my son. While he would use his money for going to the pub and treats for himself as he doesn't have a car and his business pays for his mobile phone and "maintenance" would be classed as a bill. If I said I wanted a contribution for the car, the phone and my son that would mean he was providing even more money for "us", meaning that he could say that he is keeping a roof over mine and my sons head. I suppose I just don't want to be beholden to him - I feel like he will have control over me and this is the reason why I won't go and work for him. If his attitude was different ie. I want to do this, I do it because I love you and I ask for nothing in return, then I know I would feel different. But he hasn't been saying that has he? I need to talk to him tonight and I think I need to tell him that I can't live with him because of the discussions that we've had.

It hurts me to think I won't have the family unit I want. His children stayed last night and it is so nice but then I'm the one left to make the breakfast for them (he makes his own), tidy and sort out the childrens bedroom, do a load of washing and I'm the one looking after the children now(and trying to work from home) while he's gone to the barbers! Why? Because he "made the effort" yesterday and collected my son from holiday club and hour and a half before I was due to pick him up and took him and his children to the park and then came home and bought and put some frozen pizza in the oven for our tea. So I think I'm supposed to feel indebted (and I probably do) to him.

Anyway, I am supposed to be working and I'm spending far too much time on here.

meanycath

Can I just ask you all a question?

He is adamant that other people would understand what he has been saying. He says that couples buy a home together and that's what he wants to do.

By me giving him a share of the house (less the mortgage) this means that he would be getting nothing at the start but as the years went on and the mortgage got paid off and (hopefully) house prices rose, he would then own more and more of this property until eventually the mortgage was paid off when he would own 38.5% of the property which he would leave in his will to his children. If we moved at any time he would own 38.5% of the property less the mortgage amount. I would have the 90K equity I have now plus any possible rises in value on that 90k.

He says if we met and both had nothing we would buy a house together and he can't understand why I have such a big problem with his proposal as he would be taking over the mortgage (which would have to be in joint names) and paying half of the bills that he uses.

i just wondered if I'm not telling his side of the story very well as nobody seems to see his side and he is adamant that he hasn't been unfair to me.

I really must go now!

Curry_Queen

Hi Cath

I can see where he is coming from now that you've explained things a little better, but how it looked before was that he expected to gain immediate equity in the property on moving on. Obviously if he's contributing to the mortgage over a period of years and should something happen whereby you're no longer together then he would most likely have some claim to the home. Not sure where he gets this exact figure of 38.5% from but obviously he's done some calculations beforehand and figured all this out for himself. To safeguard your own, and your son's interests I would get legal advice and maybe have a contract drawn up before you even allow him to pay a penny of the mortgage and make sure you keep accurate records on your financial commitments together.

Just one other thing I've picked up on ... you say he would class the maintenance for his children as a "bill" yet you are expected to pay for your own son out of your "personal" pot of money? Surely that's a contradiction in terms? Either pay for your respective children individually out of personal money or both lots are classed as "bills" and come out of the joint pot

rchddap1

I can appreciate how he feels. However, from your last point it feels like you are trying to justify something. You don't have to get everyone here to agree with either yourself or him, or your decision. If you don't feel ready to do what he asks then don't do it.

My concern is still that his share of the house would be left to HIS children. Currently I have no children of my own. However, my partner has 2 teenage daughters. We are considering having a child though. I probably do need to make a will myself. When I do this is what it will say regards the house. If my partner is still alive then it will pass to him. However, when he does the house wil be split equally between all the children. This means that his daughters would get exactly the same amount (even though they are not my flesh and blood) as the child that my partner & I are considering having together. 33.33333% each.

However, I own our house. My partner's names are not on the deeds. So, legally neither he nor his daughters should get anything. If he wanted to he could ask for a part of the house to be legally transferred to him...ie, joint names. However, he trusts me. He knows how I feel about his daughters. He knows that if he dies that I would help and support them. I treat his daughters as my own.

We don't need for the house to be put into joint names, or for things to be right legally. He knows the sort of person that I am and that if we did split I would give him his fair share. He trusts me, and I trust him. This is one of the foundations for our relationship. It doesn't matter if we stay where we are forever, or end up in a million pound mansion. It doesn't matter if I end up owning the house, or he does. He trusts me and I trust him.

My partner has essentially paid for our main car. However, he rarely drives it. I do most of the driving to and from work. He doesn't complain that he pays for it and I drive it. He doesn't ask me to pay for it because I drive it.

Whilst I can understand his view that if he pays for the mortgage he should be legally entitled to an increasing share of the property I can't understand why he doesn't trust you. You are a decent person and if the worst happens I'm sure that you would want to give your bf his fair share and his children also.

What happens (in this will) if he dies and you remain? Would his share of the house pass to you until you die? If you do have a child with him what would happen then? Would this child get a part of the bf's estate and also part of yours? Would this leave your current son, and his other children with less than this child? Would this create resentment between your families and potentially a rift that could never be healed?

What I am trying to say is that you have to do what you feel is right. It doesn't matter what people here say that you should do. We can offer advice, ask you questions, but you, your bf, your son, and his children have to live with the decision that is made. We don't. No-one here would want to end up pushing you into a decision that is wrong for you. And I'm sure that your bf wouldn't want to do that either.

If you need time to think it through then take that time. Don't feel pressured by either him, friends, family, anyone on this board, or by yourself. You can take as much time as you need to make the decision that is right for you and your family.

elona

Cath

He does not have a side! He is trying to take your house and remove your child's future security.

Even if he does pay £150 a week - it is still costing you money to "keep him". At least £35 in food and drink, money for the pub, tumble drying because he does not like washing around "your" house - and it is his washing. Two baths a day and central heating on full blast. Expensive foods etc.

An earlier suggestion was to tell him "you have been reported" and he will have to remove his stuff. Tell him he can rent or buy a flat to give him "an investment" and then - later you can think about moving in together properly.

I know that you do not want to be on your own with a child - but if you let him hoodwink you there is a good chance you could be on your own with two children and have lost your home into the bargain.

Of course he is adament that he is not being unfair to you - con merchants always try to make out they are doing you a favour - it is how they succeed!

Please put yourself and Your child first - he is a grown man and he should be looking after you - or at least it should be a proper partnership.

jellyhead

must admit i was a bit surprised that nobody said they saw his side, i'd imagine that if he sat in the pub and asked almost everyone would agree with him. i remember when a friend a couple of years ago got together with a single mum a lot of his single friends thought he was being taken for a mug and thought she should be grateful to him for taking on the 'burden' of her daughter and herself. he didn't see it that way of course and is still very happy.

but i think really it's his attitude that's made people worry about you rather than seeing things from his side. hubby and i have a monthly 'allowance' to be spent on whatever we like, in reality i don't actually get mine, it's swallowed up by the weekly shopping but at least i feel that i can buy books from charity shops, get my hair trimmed, etc. sometimes. i do think a monthly allowance is a good thing though. but surely your car is a family bill? it's not just for your personal use is it? do you take him/his children anywhere in it? if you need it to get to work then it's hardly a personal extravagance so it should come out of the family bills rather than your allowance, in the same way that if his business didn't pay for his car and phone etc. his salary would be higher! what's he earning, less than 20 a year? remind him that nobody else on that salary can buy a house. he can't even manage to house himself at the moment on his salary.

i still think you should wait for the divorces to come through so you get legal aid, why pay for it? you can't afford to. deep down you don't feel comfortable about him moving in just yet. maybe if you hang on for a few months he'll improve his attitude and it will be the hearts and flowers relationship you want?

meanycath

What does he earn? About 16k a year plus tips and out of that 16k he would be buying his share in his parents house and a share in mine. That would give him a mortgage of to be paying of about 85k in total. It seems to me that he would be using his salary in the best possible way by investing a large majority of it into property. It suits him that his parents needed him to help them buy a bigger house and it suits him that I can't afford to just let him live with me and pay half the bills as he then gets an investment for his money.

I agree with what you said about blokes in pubs and when he talks about "other people", these are the people he means.

I think a lot of the problem is that neither of us earn very much, I want to protect my home for myself and my son, he wants to gain something for his money.

I think I just need to go with my gut feelings and tell him that rightly or wrongly I'm simply not comfortable with living with him and the financial implications of that at the moment and it doesn't matter that he has now changed his mind and says that I can deal with all the finances and all his incomings and outgoings - I still don't feel comfortable.