Friendships being ruined by out of control child :(

wannabehermit

Sorry I haven't read the replies, will do so in a bit, but just wanted to respond to your OP from the 'other side'.

My ds2 is a 'handful' at best, he has been like this forever, he is now 6 and I have been trying to get help with him since before he was 2. I have had volunteers, nursery nurses, health visitors, gps, camhs, 'beahvioural specialists' round numerous times, I have gone on countless parenting courses, but all to no avail. He can be a lovely, funny, caring little boy and we are so often complimented by strangers over his manners, but, we very rarely see this. I have recently been referred to yet another Primary Mental Health worker at another CAMHS office and have written them a letter about how he behaves and how it affects us as a family. So far this letter is 7 pages long and I haven't finished yet. Quite often I could probably be accused of lax parenting because after 6 years of being worn down by him you get to the point where you think "why am I bothering wasting my breath and energy trying to parent him and discipline him?". That is caused by the fact that nothing works.

I am now without friends and without family. I have become totally isolated from all of them because of ds2s behaviour. I used to go out regularly with the mums from ds1s old school, I was criticised constantly by them over his behaviour and soon they changed their plans and didn't tell me, one of the mums did tell me where they now met up and when I turned up you should have seen the look of horror on their faces. I have another former friend who refused to see me during school holidays, the first time she met ds2 she was round for less than half an hour and couldn't get out of the house fast enough. That's just 2, there's a lot more and I've now stopped bothering talking to people then I can't befriend them and be let down when they show their horror in ds2s behaviour and make their excuses for not seeing me again.

As for family, well I don't have a lot anyway, but I haven't seen my niece for over a year. She was round with her ds1 (who is a few days older than ds2) and the 3 ds's were playing together, they were doing things they were not allowed to so I told them to stop, my 2 did, he didn't, I tried to get him to stop but my niece did nothing. My ds2 reacted badly to the fact that nephew was doing something that he shouldn't be and 'kicked off'. When he kicks off this involves screaming, growling, spitting, punching, kicking, biting, scratching and then destroying anything he can get his hands on. My niece left pretty quickly while this was going on, criticising me and my children and I've not seen her since. My mum no longer speaks to me because of ds2s behaviour (there are other issues but that is the big one), she thinks I'm a !!!! parent because of how he is, he has her in tears when she does come round, but all I get is criticism from her instead of support, thankfully my dad understands and supports me. DHs parents 'get it' as he was exactly the same as a child so MIL especially completely understands what I am going through with him, but SIL is another who has made it clear that ds2 is not welcome at her house. She hasn't said anything up front but it's obvious, "Come and stay whenever you like, but it'll have to be a weekend when you haven't got the boys". One time recently we had to nip to shops while we were all out, we were gone for less than 5 minutes, dc's were left with MIL, FIL, SIL & her DH, but she phoned DH in tears over ds2 (he wasn't even that bad by all accounts).

What I'm trying to say is that is there something else other than he's 'naughty'? Maybe her parenting looks ineffectual because she's exhausted and totally drained by the way he behaves and realises that nothing she does has any effect on his bahviour so she has lost the will to parent. Maybe she needs support from her friends instead of criticism? I know I do. I know it's difficult for people who don't have a child like ds2 to understand how hard it is to look after him (his behaviour is so intense and incessant, there is no let up whatsoever. He also gets pretty severe 'night terrors' so I even have to spend a lot of nighttimes caring for him). I really wanted to get across that it may not be her fault, there may be something underlying, a genuine medical reason for why her son behaves in such a way and I know how it feels to be isolated and have no friends because of a total lack of understanding on other peoples behalfs. Please support your friend and be there for her and even if you can't understand, please listen and just be there for her if and when she needs to moan and have a shoulder to cry on.

Bimblebops

Nicki wrote: »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you have taken care of the child, you have tried to discipline him using normal methods and he has bitten, sworn and spat at you. Why do you think he is not doing this to his own parents? You quite probably have more experience of dealing with challenging behaviours than they do, having the experience of dealing with a child with autism, but even with all those weapons in your arsenal and perhaps applying techniques of behavioural analysis which they have not been trained in, cannot suggest anything which will work. On your own evidence, this child is uncontrollable for whatever reason.

Presumably you are not suggesting that mum and dad should resort to physically abusing him, and whilst you disapprove of him being allowed to continue to do karate, perhaps they have found he is marginally better when he had hard physical exercise and burns off some steam.





If you want to cut off contact with the child due to his behaviour, then do so. If you also want to cut off contact with him parents, then do that as well. But it is quite harsh to blame them 100% for his behaviour when they have two other children who don't behave badly, and when you also have been unable to control the child using normal discipline methods.

I am afraid it does sound to me like this child has issues which have not been addressed, whether these are a learning difficulty or a mental health issue, and I suspect his parents are at the end of their tether with him. He is not your problem I agree and you can turn your back at any time you wish, but I personally wouldn't be as quick to blame the parents for the situation, as punishing bad behaviour and rewarding good behaviour on your own evidence is not working with him. As I say, he's not your problem and you probably have enough on your plate already, but I have huge sympathy for this boys parents as he sounds a complete nightmare to live with, and it also sounds like they are well on their way to being socially isolated as a result.

Tx for the replies.Will try to answer the above in bullet points re the underlined bits
Why do you think he is not doing this to his own parents He DOES.He treats his mum,grandma and grandad like utter rubbish.All sweetness and light till they try to say no to something or tell him off then he'll start the attitude,the throwing stuff.He'll turn the tears on,they'll hand him some sweet or chocolate,roll their eyes,say "kids eh?" with a little laugh and let him do whatever it was they said no to in the first place.he has ABSOLUTELY NO attitude when with his dad,paternal grandfather,aunties,teachers etc and infact the dad thinks the tales of him hurting other kids/swearing at us etc are wildly exaggerated as the child shows none of this around him.To me,and I'm no expert,that isn't a sign of an undx'd behavioural or mental health issue,that's a spoilt little brat showing blatant disrespect because he CAN.He's very aware of who he can and can't get away with stuff around and what the consequences are hence the impeccable behaviour at school/with dad.

Presumably you are not suggesting that mum and dad should resort to physically abusing him, and whilst you disapprove of him being allowed to continue to do karate, perhaps they have found he is marginally better when he had hard physical exercise and burns off some steam.

I'm not disapproving of him being allowed to continue karate as such,I'm disapproving of him being allowed to merrily carry on with the things he enjoys after being a little £$$!&!.By his mums own admission the only reason she doesn't punish him by not going is she can't be bothered to listen to him moaning.Just as she can't put him with the whinging if she actually follows through her threat of taking his xbox away etc.If dad was to witness even one episode of bad behaviour that he displays with mum the karate would be out the window alongside his xbox etc.So THIS is what you hear all afternoon."K stop doing that or you won't go to karate"."K I said stop it or there's no karate I mean it" "K stop" "K that wasn't nice,say sorry to blah blah" ..at this point you get a smirky little "sorry" and feel like throttling him whilst the child he hurt is being comforted by their mum in the background.Then he'll usually go off,decide to harrass some other child till their mum comes over and complains.Mum will start again "K say sorry" <insert smirky sorry here> "that's it no karate and I mean it this time".Cue tears,cue mum saying "oh it's so hard seeing them, upset" and TAADAAA mars bar/crisps whatever are hauled out,K is put in the car and off they pop to karate :mad::mad:

But it is quite harsh to blame them 100% for his behaviour when they have two other children who don't behave badly, and when you also have been unable to control the child using normal discipline methods

Sorry but I have to say I pretty much DO blame mum for his behaviour.She's been given the advice,the tools to work with and she chooses to ignore them.I can get him to behave fairly well when it's just me or hubby at home or on the occasions we've taken him out with ours.But mum arrives,game over and he's a little brat again.However if dad arrives to collect we get the "thankyou for having me" and even a hug so it's a different story.

and I suspect his parents are at the end of their tether with him

Tbh.Nope.Dad is blissfully unaware as son is great when with him and interestingly great when he's with BOTH mum and dad.Mum is in total denial and everything brought to her attention she passes off as "the other kid started it so K retaliated"...yes even if that other child is 3!

, as punishing bad behaviour and rewarding good behaviour on your own evidence is not working with him

Here's my issue.There is NO punishing bad behaviour.I have not seen once,not a SINGLE time mum follow through her threat of missing karate/grounding/no xbox time etc in the years I've known them.It's a total flip.His BAD behaviour is rewarded.Infact the worse he behaves the more he gets rewarded!He hurts 3 kids,he swears at a few parents,mum knows he's going to kick off so pacifies him with junk and carts him off to karate where the sensai there can do the job of disciplining him for her.
One example.We were out at the park with maybe 10 of the kids.K decided it was his turn to go on the swing so quite literally shoved a 5 year old face first off it.The poor thing grazed all the side of her face,had an egg pop up on her forehead,cut a few fingers and was screaming.Mum wanders over.."K say sorry" but he just laughed,she left him playing ON the swing then comes back over and says "well L was on there a long time and K was patient but you know how boys are":eek: 5 year olds mum FLIPS at that,rounds up her three kids and goes home.
The reward charts I've drawn up for her and sat and got son to actually sign a little "conduct contract" with very very clear rewards AND consequences on.Well what a flipping waste of my three hours.Say the aim was to get 10 smileys that week and then he could go swimming/go to the cinema etc he could get 2 of the 10 smileys,plus break every "unacceptable behaviour" rule and where would they be when I rang to say hi on sat am?At the bloody cinema. Pointless :mad:

and it also sounds like they are well on their way to being socially isolated as a result

Thankfully not the case.They are a very busy active family and I love my friend to bits and would never allow that to happen to her.

Bimblebops

CH27 wrote: »

So he chooses who to misbehave for?

Have you tried speaking to the dad about the situation?

Yes he picks and chooses who gets the pleasure of his awful behaviour and who gets the "nice" K.Drives me insane.
I have spoken to the dad,I'm sure he thinks we exagerate as at no time has he seen K do any of the stuff we mention but he does work a lot so mum does the majority of the childcare.

pinkclouds

wannabehermit wrote: »

I really wanted to get across that it may not be her fault, there may be something underlying, a genuine medical reason for why her son behaves in such a way and I know how it feels to be isolated and have no friends because of a total lack of understanding on other peoples behalfs. Please support your friend and be there for her and even if you can't understand, please listen and just be there for her if and when she needs to moan and have a shoulder to cry on.

I'm sorry for your situation, hun. I think we are all trying to say that it is right to support the mom and we are not advocating de-friending her but that doesn't mean that her son should continue to have playdates with other kids who are being adversely affected by him. Or, to put it another way, you cannot sacrifice the good of the many for the good of the one. There is a limit as to what innocent kids should have to put up with and that limit has long since been crossed.

Bimblebops

wannabehermit wrote: »

Sorry I haven't read the replies, will do so in a bit, but just wanted to respond to your OP from the 'other side'.

My ds2 is a 'handful' at best, he has been like this forever, he is now 6 and I have been trying to get help with him since before he was 2. I have had volunteers, nursery nurses, health visitors, gps, camhs, 'beahvioural specialists' round numerous times, I have gone on countless parenting courses, but all to no avail. He can be a lovely, funny, caring little boy and we are so often complimented by strangers over his manners, but, we very rarely see this. I have recently been referred to yet another Primary Mental Health worker at another CAMHS office and have written them a letter about how he behaves and how it affects us as a family. So far this letter is 7 pages long and I haven't finished yet. Quite often I could probably be accused of lax parenting because after 6 years of being worn down by him you get to the point where you think "why am I bothering wasting my breath and energy trying to parent him and discipline him?". That is caused by the fact that nothing works.

I am now without friends and without family. I have become totally isolated from all of them because of ds2s behaviour. I used to go out regularly with the mums from ds1s old school, I was criticised constantly by them over his behaviour and soon they changed their plans and didn't tell me, one of the mums did tell me where they now met up and when I turned up you should have seen the look of horror on their faces. I have another former friend who refused to see me during school holidays, the first time she met ds2 she was round for less than half an hour and couldn't get out of the house fast enough. That's just 2, there's a lot more and I've now stopped bothering talking to people then I can't befriend them and be let down when they show their horror in ds2s behaviour and make their excuses for not seeing me again.

As for family, well I don't have a lot anyway, but I haven't seen my niece for over a year. She was round with her ds1 (who is a few days older than ds2) and the 3 ds's were playing together, they were doing things they were not allowed to so I told them to stop, my 2 did, he didn't, I tried to get him to stop but my niece did nothing. My ds2 reacted badly to the fact that nephew was doing something that he shouldn't be and 'kicked off'. When he kicks off this involves screaming, growling, spitting, punching, kicking, biting, scratching and then destroying anything he can get his hands on. My niece left pretty quickly while this was going on, criticising me and my children and I've not seen her since. My mum no longer speaks to me because of ds2s behaviour (there are other issues but that is the big one), she thinks I'm a !!!! parent because of how he is, he has her in tears when she does come round, but all I get is criticism from her instead of support, thankfully my dad understands and supports me. DHs parents 'get it' as he was exactly the same as a child so MIL especially completely understands what I am going through with him, but SIL is another who has made it clear that ds2 is not welcome at her house. She hasn't said anything up front but it's obvious, "Come and stay whenever you like, but it'll have to be a weekend when you haven't got the boys". One time recently we had to nip to shops while we were all out, we were gone for less than 5 minutes, dc's were left with MIL, FIL, SIL & her DH, but she phoned DH in tears over ds2 (he wasn't even that bad by all accounts).

What I'm trying to say is that is there something else other than he's 'naughty'? Maybe her parenting looks ineffectual because she's exhausted and totally drained by the way he behaves and realises that nothing she does has any effect on his bahviour so she has lost the will to parent. Maybe she needs support from her friends instead of criticism? I know I do. I know it's difficult for people who don't have a child like ds2 to understand how hard it is to look after him (his behaviour is so intense and incessant, there is no let up whatsoever. He also gets pretty severe 'night terrors' so I even have to spend a lot of nighttimes caring for him). I really wanted to get across that it may not be her fault, there may be something underlying, a genuine medical reason for why her son behaves in such a way and I know how it feels to be isolated and have no friends because of a total lack of understanding on other peoples behalfs. Please support your friend and be there for her and even if you can't understand, please listen and just be there for her if and when she needs to moan and have a shoulder to cry on.

I'm sorry you have such a hard time~sending you a hug xx As I posted one of my kids is ASD ..I KNOW how it is honestly.We live with a child who can be extremely hard work,we have the mad episodes of room smashing,the headbutting etc BUT we have clear firm boundaries.I'm actually getting really upset at the thought that any of you think that if for one minute there was a real behavioural issue or mental health issue I'd ever ever consider refusing to socialise with this child:( I honestly honestly feel,having seen him in several settings and witnessed the differences in his behaviour depending on who he is with that it is literally a clever boy knowing who he can push and who he can't.
This child has been thoroughly assessed for ADHD/ASD.He has,at mums request been to three paeds,had the EP assess him they ALL agreed that he is a bright boy FULLY capable of complying with instructions at school.The EP actually told mum he thought SHE was the problem.The head teacher has actually blatantly said to both mum and dad that she feels the issue is the mum
He displays no agression at school,he has respect for teachers/dinnerladies etc there.He responds well to the red/yellow/green light system they have for behaviour at school so the school intervention officer drew up a similar chart for home.It's on the back of the kitchen door,untouched.I went on a parenting course that I even paid for to get my friend to go and there was some really useful stuff in there.Does she use any of it?No.
I can't tell you how frustrating it is

Bimblebops

Gingham_R wrote: »

Oh lord, what an awful situation.

I notice you say that he's okay for men but not for women. This is a really difficult question and not one I'm expecting an answer to, but is it possible that he's reacting to something at home? ie is it possible that his father isn't treating his mother very well?

If it's just one out of her 3 children, I really think there's more to it than bad parenting. That said, I also think you're right to try to protect yourself and your children from him, especially as he's old enough to be getting stronger and bigger very soon.

I would be honest with her that I simply could not be around him while he's behaving like that but I'd also tell her I loved her, and him, and wanted to help her get help for him, whatever the problem is.

Mum and dad are fine together but dads background is very much male dominated.Womans place is in the home,man earns etc.Hadn't thought of that side,although K does really play up for his maternal grandfather too so not sure.
He is a big lad already and much taller and more solid than most of the kids his age that he plays with.He uses it to his full advantage to hurt the others and does worry a lot of us with smaller ones tbh:(

Spendless

Thanks for coming back Bimblepops and explainign further. I do/did have a friend very similar though her eldest son wasn't as bad as described at the same age, as a toddler he was very good, but became far worse in the Secondary school years. He was the child that grew up to be the drug dealer that I mentioned in an earlier post, one that was later described as being irrelevant to say how kids turned out later in life.;) My friend couldn't see how the child was either. I believe it was because she didn't want to confront his behaviour. Why that was the case I'm not sure though I'd hazard a guess at him being her 1st born and her being besotted by him (she once admitted he was her favourite of her 3 kids - something we'd all privately thought) so she didn't want to parent him cos she wanted to be his mate instead. Dad worked very long hours so didn't see his antics and Mum covered them up anyway.

I dropped my friend when her son started dealing drugs and she still couldn't see that he was any way in the wrong.

You sound a good friend and I hope you can find some solution to this.

Welshwoofs

Well this thread has highlighted one thing to me....

Whilst there is definitely an issue with writing off kids with problems as 'naughty children' there also seems to be a tendency amongst some to try and 'find' a problem to excuse the behaviour of some kids who are simply nasty little $hits who need more discipline in their lives.

Op - the kid sounds like a horrid little monster; you have my sympathies.

Bimblebops

Spendless wrote: »

Thanks for coming back Bimblepops and explainign further. I do/did have a friend very similar though her eldest son wasn't as bad as described at the same age, as a toddler he was very good, but became far worse in the Secondary school years. He was the child that grew up to be the drug dealer that I mentioned in an earlier post, one that was later described as being irrelevant to say how kids turned out later in life.;) My friend couldn't see how the child was either. I believe it was because she didn't want to confront his behaviour. Why that was the case I'm not sure though I'd hazard a guess at him being her 1st born and her being besotted by him (she once admitted he was her favourite of her 3 kids - something we'd all privately thought) so she didn't want to parent him cos she wanted to be his mate instead. Dad worked very long hours so didn't see his antics and Mum covered them up anyway.

I dropped my friend when her son started dealing drugs and she still couldn't see that he was any way in the wrong.

You sound a good friend and I hope you can find some solution to this.

SPOT ON!! He's the first born of three,the oldest boy which is very important to hubby with his background.He is treated like a king and has mum wrapped round his little finger whilst the girl is expected to be of the "seen and not heard" variety.She openly admits that he is her favourite,her "best boy" as she calls him.Dad works lots and when he comes home is never told any of the bad things because mum doesn't want to ruin the father/ son time.Go figure :mad:

ETA.In my friends defence I think she hides things from hubby because she doesn't want to see son shouted at as hubby wouldn't tolerate it,but K knows this and plays on it.

Bimblebops

Welshwoofs wrote: »

Well this thread has highlighted one thing to me....

Whilst there is definitely an issue with writing off kids with problems as 'naughty children' there also seems to be a tendency amongst some to try and 'find' a problem to excuse the behaviour of some kids who are simply nasty little $hits who need more discipline in their lives.

Op - the kid sounds like a horrid little monster; you have my sympathies.

Thankyou for this!Whilst I am fully aware that for a lot of kids,including my own,there ARE real "diagnosable" (is that even a word??) issues that affect behaviour K is NOT one of those.As much as it pains me to speak about a 10 year old in this way,he's just a little spoilt brat plain and simple.All of us have been driven mad by the mums quest to get him diagnosed x/y/z when it's obvious to every single person who personally knows them with half a brain cell that the only bloody issue here is a total lack of basic parenting on the mums part.And breathe