Nibe Fighter 360p ashp costing me loads to run

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  • Pincher
    Pincher Posts: 6,552 Forumite
    Combo Breaker First Post
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    Don't rip out the grilles and ducting.

    Put in a MVHR, Mechanical Ventilation with Heat Recovery, utilising the existing ducting.

    Essentially, the stale air going out is passed through a heat exchanger, releasing the heat to incoming fresh air. It's driven by two fans, which does not cost very much. The warmer fresh air means the main heating system has less work to do, thus saving you money.

    The Exhaust Air concept can only supplement a heating system, not replace it and heat hot water as well. There just isn't enough heat to collect in the exhaust.
  • lovesfarmbpha
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    yes thanks was thinking about that ...as we have no trickle vents as such only damn holes in the walls but there are special filters you can put in the holes to reduce noise etc,,,,,so yes certainly an option thanks....
  • lovesfarmbpha
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    http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2012-09-19/householders-claim-eco-friendly-heating-sent-bills-soaring/

    Nibe attended these sites 6 moths ago and re commissioned all of the homes with an " A OK"...now they say there are some issues...really cannot keep up with the lies...
  • daddy_k
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    new to the forum.

    living in a 4 bedroom, 3 story house with around 11 rooms in total.

    this is the 2nd house ive lived in with this unit.
    the first house i could manage to run the unit, keep the house warm and have some warm water for around £3 a day.

    the house im in now on the same estate is using around 60kwh per day (inc normal electric usage which is around 16kwh per day if i leave it on summer mode)

    now i cannot afford a £300 a month electric bill.

    after doing some reading, i made the assumption the house is too big for the system, and has been wrongly specced.

    my housing association have no engineers that know what they are doing with this, so i called nibe direct, they sent an engineer to check it over.

    in short he stated the house is too big, he measured it at around 160 square meters, says the system is having towork a third more than it can. the system was not set up quite right however he says it wont make much of a difference to the running cost, however his improvements may help warm up the 3rd floor better.

    he done a report highlighting the size of the house, without saying directly its too big, but did highlight the size in the report, plus he highlighted the radiators were all supplied with 10mm piping which he says is too small for the system.

    the system can just manage to heat the ground and 1st floor, however not the 3rd, and as soon as any demand for hot water is needed it struggles,

    its basically a choice of £300 a month for warm house and warm water...or a normal bill, freezing cold 3rd floor and no hot water above 30 degrees

    so the housing association are doing their own investigation so lets see what happens.

    my secret weapon however is the fact whilst the nibe engineer wouldnt say in black and white the house is too big for the system, and it shouldnt of been put in, especially when there is a gas mains pipe 3 meteres away, we had a detailed conversation which has all been recorded ;)

    im hoping for the system to be ripped out and a standard combi boiler to be installed.

    i must add in the right size property, with it set up right, and the home owner knowing how to use the system its not too bad
  • lovesfarmbpha
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    Hi.
    Here at the Loves Farm estate in Cambridgeshire the HA and developers along with an independent engineer ( key word) agreed that the the 360 model was undersized in homes of the size of 4 bedrooms and above,oh and one 3 bedroom house over 3 floors.
    The same report found homes with the 200 model that are 2 bed and above have also been undersized.
    These units are being removed and combi boiler installed as the homes all have gas connected to them (homes built in 2010 ).
    Often heat pump engineers will mock gas and say things like "gas central heating runs a flow temp (water in your rads) at 80C where as a heat pump only needs 40C flow rate). If any one says this tell them they are talking tripe as gas boiler can run down to a flow rate of 30C.
    Also the most common statement and possibly the best way to see if the person your talking to knows their stuff or they are just dribbling out some sales pitch is they will say "heat pumps are 300% efficient,where as gas boiler are only 87% efficient" .
    Well a heat pump would have to be 300% efficient and above just to meet the same cost of gas and the same can be said for CO2 emission currently in the UK.
    So if they say the above statement and try to sell it as wow look its super you can say sod off you fool.
    Your NIBE has a "lab conditions" 260% efficiency rated by NIBE (so does not even match gas. If you take it out of the lab and put it in a home that drops to 220% immediately ,if you then take it below its lab designed temps your be lucky if you get 200%.
    DOnt forget the facebook page https://www.facebook.com/NIBE3601

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJr_oPXRYl0
  • John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint Posts: 8,391 Forumite
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    edited 23 November 2012 at 12:18PM
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    If any one says this tell them they are talking tripe as gas boiler can run down to a flow rate of 30C.
    Also the most common statement and possibly the best way to see if the person your talking to knows their stuff or they are just dribbling out some sales pitch is they will say "heat pumps are 300% efficient,where as gas boiler are only 87% efficient" .
    Well a heat pump would have to be 300% efficient and above just to meet the same cost of gas and the same can be said for CO2 emission currently in the UK.

    Interestingly, there is a fuss today about the energy bill, because the government has thrown it weight behind the continuing economic price of fossil fuel natural "fracked" gas, which if burned in modern low thermal mass power stations (the burner is something like a jet engine) should increase the efficiency of the electrical system to (say) 66% from the current (say) 33% average. The electricity distribution network loses power by heating the pylon wires and transformers, so each individual home gets a different overall efficiency.

    Be a little careful about those gas efficiency figures for condensing combi boilers - you won't get anything like that efficiency in the summer, when (say) deciding to do the washing up; similarly there is a daily loss from a tank of hot water, even if you are away from home and so don't use any of it, having a bioler that turns on just to top up the heat in a tank, probably wastes 50% of the heat in the gas.
    [If the gas boiler does not manage to "condense", the latent heat in the flue gas is being thrown away into the garden].

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/latent+heat

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensing_boiler

    Note the desirability of having large "cool" radiators.
  • lovesfarmbpha
    lovesfarmbpha Posts: 126 Forumite
    edited 23 November 2012 at 5:18PM
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    Hello John.
    They removed the hot water tanks and installed combi boilers so only heats what you use.
    Unlike the NIBE or other "eco" system that requires a hot water tank to yes "continually" top up even when you not using it.

    http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Heating-and-hot-water/Replacing-your-boiler

    Hot radiators dry the laundry better ;)
  • John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint Posts: 8,391 Forumite
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    edited 26 November 2012 at 6:54PM
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    Something tells me, you come from the British Gas "The fuel that obeys you" heritage.

    It is looking like that modern technology is pushing the world and its 7,000,000,000 to 10,000,000,000 citizens towards monitoring and rationing, using computerised control.
    On the roads we will have differential road pricing, and in the energy field the trend is towards, eliminate demand (insulation plus renewables) then ration demand (mainly by price).
    This will require planning ahead and using power at "cheap" times of day and days of the week.

    While gas is available on tap, those lucky people with a condensing boiler can put off these difficulties.

    It is fairly clear that those in social housing need cheap base prices, controls over their consumption - the ability to turn it off on again as they see fit - and an alternative system to electricity for spot and top up heating (log stove, gas fire etc).

    The need for and the problems getting a change in attitude towards heating and energy use, is widely discussed:

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Energy+saving+consumer+behaviour+Heat+Pump

    Personally I have the same sort of difficulties introducing my own supply of "free" electricity, which is rationed by the weather :

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=57516447#post57516447

    :D
  • John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint Posts: 8,391 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary
    edited 26 November 2012 at 6:50PM
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    Hot radiators dry the laundry better ;)

    It somewhat goes against the benefit of having a condensing boiler though - if you think about it, it is like taking the condensate from the boiler, throwing it over a pile of clothes and then hanging them over a radiator to get then dry again.

    [beware of the condensation appearing again at the back of your cupboards or in the corner of an unused bedroom in the form of black mould].

    In theory your home should be one of the first "built tight and ventilated right", but perhaps it is neither of those.
  • lovesfarmbpha
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    Log Stove now that's something that has stood the test of time. Unfortunately not to be found in new builds.
    We are horrified that the government funding was not put to good use,they should have done better with the money.New homes need to be fit for future energy with a universal approach rather than one system works .Ripping a NIBE eahp, vents and all from a home is no fun and extremely costly unlike removing an ASHP.
    Electricity is the future,for sure.
    We are gutted to go back to gas as when we moved in we thought "yes we are contributing to a greener future" .
    Wrong green we are afraid to report.
    Well condensation is easily fixed,trickle vents are only a drill bit and some cheap plastic. Fans are easy to mount and windows are easier to open.
    We do not say gas is amazing we want a green future for our children but electricity guzzling devices are a no no currently and until Britain improves its electricity to be of a greener standard we will sit here and wait saving our pennies to buy into the NEW tech. Which is what 20 years away ,our children will be adults and retirement will be not far away,20 years from now the technology will have improved and if it has not we will have saved enough for our log stove ;)
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