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Nibe Fighter 360p ashp costing me loads to run

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  • Willnthat
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    We had a bill for £1,200. 3 storey, 5 bedrooms. Engineer today basically said we're screwed. House is too big. We only have electric, so is there anything we can replace this beast with???
  • John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint Posts: 8,391 Forumite
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    edited 15 March 2013 at 6:25AM
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    Woolly jumper ?

    Seriously though, you are asking the question the wrong way round.
    The first step it to understand heat losses of the building and how you as a family need to use it.

    A heat pump has to be designed as part of the house to which it is being fitted, and it has to be designed to balance with its radiant/hot air output, other half of the heating system.

    Anyone pretending to be a surveyor, but really a salesman, who trots out a simple answer to your simplistic question is lying to you.

    As this thread is about a specific type of air source heat pump, that sucks its input warm air OUT of the house it is trying to heat, you would be best advised to start your own thread, and give full details and pictures of your house and its heat pump.
    The hamlet of North Blyth was in part fitted with air source heat pumps, in two phases, and your brand was the first phase. Better air source heat pumps had been developed since BUT the major problem with heat pumps is
    (A) Lack of understanding by the home owner who does not know how to use it.
    (B) Lack of understanding on the part of the designer who specified it.
    (C) Lack of understanding and ability on the part of the "heating engineer" who fitted the heating system.
    You have to realise that all heat pumps cannot cope with seriously cold weather. As the temperature range between the input and output temperature widens the efficiency of the machine falls, from its often quoted 3 (300%), until it has no option but to use a simple heating element to try to maintain the required heat in the home.
    So if you do not have a home that is really well insulated and you feel you can trust the pump to be left running 24/7 in mid winter - you have got the wrong heating system. Turning it off intermittently will simply make things worse.
    You can help your pump by partnering it with some other source of heat cheaper than electricity (log burner?).

    Back in the 1970's, the first time it looked like the world was running out of cheap oil , heat pumps were seen as the technical solution. The Scandinavians, where the heating has to be left on 24/7 anyway, successfully developed the ground source heat pump. Here in Britain we discovered and squandered our North Sea resources, meanwhile in Austria, mistakes just like the ones we are now making, were happening all over the country. Funny the way that people do not talk about their failures.

    Perhaps you need an Austrian heating engineer?

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=59954289&highlight=#post59954289

    (You need a spare day to read the whole thread)
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,042 Forumite
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    Woolly jumper ?

    BUT the major problem with heat pumps is
    (A) Lack of understanding by the home owner who does not know how to use it.
    (B) Lack of understanding on the part of the designer who specified it.
    (C) Lack of understanding and ability on the part of the "heating engineer" who fitted the heating system.

    But apart from that;)
  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413 Forumite
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    @ J-P
    Your quote:
    You have to realise that all heat pumps cannot cope with seriously cold weather. As the temperature range between the input and output temperature widens the efficiency of the machine falls, from its often quoted 3 (300%), until it has no option but to use a simple heating element to try to maintain the required heat in the home.
    So if you do not have a home that is really well insulated and you feel you can trust the pump to be left running 24/7 in mid winter - you have got the wrong heating system. Turning it off intermittently will simply make things worse.


    Just a few comments on that statement:
    Most if not all ASHP (water/air) heat pumps now are designed to operate to -20C, obviously with the additional heat coming in as required, as you have stated. On the IVT models there is a "countdown" timer, usually set at 60 mins, before it kicks in to assist. Yes the COP is low at under 0C. I have graphs for all the IVT units showing performance at low temps, but cannot post them here as PDF's.
    A GSHP however can cope to -35C, again with the additional heat timer if required. Here, the gshp has only had to have 30hrs of additional heat over 6years and the heating is on 24/7 @19.2C underfloor. House is 250 years old, stone walls with medium insulation. We live close to the mountains so have been down to at least -10C overnight.
    The biggest point with heat pumps, is that people do not understand , even when it is explained to them, that you do not turn the room thermostat down (if fitted), but just adjust the return flow from the heating on the timer. The recommendation on our units is -1.5C for UFH or -4C for radiators.
    A heat pump is really meant to be on 24/7, as it is more efficient and as you state, it defeats the object if you turn it on and off all the time
    Here, when the outside temperature reaches 16C (default factory setting is 18C), then the heating cycle shuts down and the pump only supplies the DHW. Over the 6 years, the pump has run for over 12000 hrs, without a problem and no servicing costs, apart from me cleaning the 2 filters once a year.
    Know this is the wrong thread, but would prefer to clarify some points!!
    Quite happy to send anyone the performance graphs (about 12 ) if you message me a email address.
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
  • John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint Posts: 8,391 Forumite
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    Thanks Geotherm.
    Would I be right in thinking that you have a traditional highland Italian home, but it has been modernised with an underfloor heating system (on two stories ?). The joy of ground source is that it has to be incredibly cold for a long time for the frost to penetrate the ground, as the good people of Ulster found out 2 or 3 years ago - somehow they missed out on the 62/63 Siberia comes to Britain experience.

    Did the Bosch takeover of IVT make any difference; here there was a flurry of activity with a nice video of a director having a pump installed.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzXt55ZGsNw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X3lMzIkvgI
    But nothing much seems to have developed since.
  • lovesgshp
    lovesgshp Posts: 1,413 Forumite
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    Thanks Geotherm.
    Would I be right in thinking that you have a traditional highland Italian home, but it has been modernised with an underfloor heating system (on two stories ?). The joy of ground source is that it has to be incredibly cold for a long time for the frost to penetrate the ground, as the good people of Ulster found out 2 or 3 years ago - somehow they missed out on the 62/63 Siberia comes to Britain experience.

    Did the Bosch takeover of IVT make any difference; here there was a flurry of activity with a nice video of a director having a pump installed.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzXt55ZGsNw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X3lMzIkvgI
    But nothing much seems to have developed since.

    Hi.
    The house is 2 floors, but the lower floor is not developed, at the moment, albeit I am working on it!! We are at 400 mtrs altitude.
    The underfloor heating system was one thing that we insisted on throughout the renovation. This was coupled with roof insulation, as there are no ceilings or loft space here. The only other alteration, was double glazed windows. Walls are 60cm, but stone, which looses heat faster than brick.
    The Bosch merger as such, has not made any difference, as they needed the IVT technology to promote the WB units in the UK, (Bosch did not have a heat pump), but they are still IVT. Over here we still give a 5year guarantee on the pumps and 10 years on the ground loops. The Mitsubishi compressor is not the same as on the Ecodan, as it is a patent unit, that the Ecodan cannot use. IVT brought out another GSHP new heat pump, about Oct last year, so units are still being developed.
    HTH
    As Manuel says in Fawlty Towers: " I Know Nothing"
  • tomellingham
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    I'm a leaseholder of a one bedroom flat with a NIBE boiler. Just entered my meter reading and I'm averaging £75 a month in electricity. My flat is never warm (unless I cook something!) and the boler is useless.

    It is a new build flat coming up to 18 months old. Are there any consumer rights that I have to get the boiler removed and replaced? At the rate I'm going a new oiler will pay for itself in a little over a year.

    Tom
  • John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint Posts: 8,391 Forumite
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    Read the whole thread Tom.
  • T_Wilson
    T_Wilson Posts: 41 Forumite
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    Has anyone had an error message on their Nibe saying 'Low Exhaust'?

    I'm getting this and it will only stay in full winter mode
  • John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint Posts: 8,391 Forumite
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    It is a bit cold and damp at the moment - can you by any chance put a thermometer in the exhaust from the NIBE and tell us the temperature of the exhaust and the external temperature, [and your internal temperature if you want] when it is running on winter setting..
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