Nibe Fighter 360p ashp costing me loads to run

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Comments

  • crociato
    crociato Posts: 6 Forumite
    Hi

    I have a NIBE Fighter 360p and it copes perfectly well at sool ammbient temperatures, in fact its great at any temperature.

    You nee someone who can read the online instructions in PDF format 3rd item on google search, and set the heating curves correctly for your microclimate.

    I did this on mine from the instructions as no plumbers nor the builders plumber of my New Build home 2 yrs old have any idea what to do.

    The default settings are for Scandinavian countires with a very different climate so you can't leave the system on default and expect it to run properly, the plumber should have known this and the installer.

    Once you have worked out how to access the heating curve settings and offset heating curve settings, set them at about 4 and 1 respectively and then take meter readings or use an energy usage monitor to show the NIBES sage only, and then if needed proceed to change them daily upwards until you have your desired effect in heating and hot water, you'll have to open yor rads to full if on thermostatic vavles and ensure the system is pressure is above 1 BAR prefferably 1.5BAR.

    By a simple "suck it and see process" you'll get the effect needed and see the usage cost come down. I have a Condenser dryer running twice daily and washing machine running twice or more, so should have massive bills if the NIBE was not set right. I only pay £83.00 pcm by DD and am in credit, I keep below £90.00 even in the coldest of winters with the system on Winter auto setting, so the problems really are due to poor installation and lack of knowledge on the part of plumbers/electricians trying to set the machine correctly.

    Take the time to read the PDF, section 6 shows how to access settyings. The PDF 1s 48 pages but not solid writing like a book but gaining a full understanding of how the system works should put an end to your problems by enabling you to get YOUR NIBE set how YOU want/need it.

    I am disabled and need it warm all year round in my home to ease joints aches and problems of autonomic temp regulation of my own body so extrenal heating being correct is essential.

    My best friends next door use the heating less than me as they are of Northern Stock and used to colder climates than a Southerner like me.....lol. They nevr get above £70 pcm and they use a prepay meter by choice!

    Hope this helped in some way.

    Regards Baz :-):D
  • lardconcepts
    lardconcepts Posts: 64 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    crociato wrote: »
    Hi I have a NIBE fihter 360p
    crociato wrote: »
    Hi I have a NIBE Fighter 360p
    crociato wrote: »
    Hi I have a NIBE Fighter 360p
    crociato wrote: »
    Hope this helped in some way.

    If only you'd mentioned which heat pump you had...

    But seriously, there's only need to post things once. And yes, you may be right, it probably is all about the heat curve. But this should have been done by the installer, not the 80 year old recipient.
  • John_Pierpoint
    John_Pierpoint Posts: 8,391 Forumite
    First Post First Anniversary
    edited 30 May 2013 at 6:03AM
    crociato wrote: »
    Hi

    ..........so the problems really are due to poor installation and lack of knowledge on the part of plumbers/electricians trying to set the machine correctly.


    I am disabled and need it warm all year round, 24 hours per day in my home to ease joints aches and problems of autonomic temp regulation of my own body so extrenal heating being correct is essential.


    Hope this helped in some way.

    Regards Baz :-):D
    you may be right, it probably is all about the heat curve. But this should have been done by the installer, not the 80 year old recipient.

    It us good to hear from a satisfied user, but with respect your posting is simplistic, that is why I have slightly updated it for you.

    Heat pump installation "failures" have multiple causes for failure. My definition of failure is that the occupants get higher bills and/or less comfort than with a condensing gas boiler, in the same property. [I have left out capital costs and mean time to failure calculations because we don't know and both sets of technology have not been in use in UK conditions for long enough - though I would like to think that the heat pump technology would win on maintenance cost - that is what has influenced a lot of hope over experience housing associations]

    The problem starts with the architectural software available to the artisan creating the detailed drawings for the on site construction of the building. Does the drawing software and the artisan using it know how to design the building and the heat pump required so that he heat losses by draughts (unintended outside the pump air changes) are eliminated?
    What happens when it is blowing a gale outside?

    Does the buildings heat loss curve match the curve of heat production within the heat pump?
    In other words does the artisan know how the two will marry together day and night
    through the four seasons of the year?
    How much of the heating/cooling load will rely on full price immersion electricity ?
    Even if the software is up to the task for this design, do you think the typical English drawing office artisan is ?

    Now in the "portacabin" on-site, how capable do you think the typical British work force are of being able to understand the significance and importance of meeting the design & specification exactly?
    [I have just watched some shared ownership flats being thrown up near the local station - there was a nod in the direction of "eco" measures, they had rainwater buts fitted to the down pipes :D good joke they lasted less than a month]
    While we still build with mortar joints over a cm thick between the lightweight concrete blocks, what hope is there of understanding of the draught proof membrane and multiple seals on the doors and windows ?

    Now that we have designed and built the shell of the building, do we expect the "first fix" plumber and electrician to come on site and recheck the previous two stages [I have left out the client, and the planning process both of which might have warped the design by imposing their own pet obsessions] ?
    Even if the plumber and the electrician had the knowledge and the training to evaluate the work done so far, are they going to kick off about it being pointless to install a too small exhaust air heat pump in a building that leaks like a sieve?
    As self employed subcontractors they are going to do a days work at the beaten down day rate offered and slap in their invoice [or fill in the time sheet that generates the "self bill" invoice for their subcontractor "customer"] Is coming back to explain the settings and any "compromises" they made if and when the building is ever formally commissioned and "snagged" part of their remit? Not if they can avoid it?

    Does any one on site have a responsibility to know how to turn on and adjust the heating/cooling/ventilating system to the satisfaction of the customer?

    Now comes the really impossible bit. Summer has turned into Winter and the first tenant needs to turn on the heating. Who is the genius who can assure the tenant that all those previous stages have been done correctly and a brain re-tread is available so that the tenant will understand how the physics of his correctly specified, correctly constructed, correctly installed, correctly commissioned home, so that the tenant will now drive it correctly.

    [To use an analogy, we have all met some people who just seem incapable of learning how to drive a car, is it conceivable that some tenants are incapable of passing their heating system driving test, if there was one - will they even bother to listen when it is explained to them - will they ever believe that turning it off does not save money - as it marginally would with a gas fired system?
    "Sorry I failed science at school, so I know that this talk is all b*llsh*t baffles brains. Have you seen my horoscope in today's paper ? "
    ]
  • lovesfarmbpha
    lovesfarmbpha Posts: 126 Forumite
    John that last post was brilliance(hit the nail on the head) ,thank you! In the meantime we have this update.
    Good news from Coventry!

    I had a further meeting this morning at 9.00am with Ashram HA at the Council House, the good news is they stated in the meeting that they will remove the NIBE boilers at the request of tenants who want them removed regardless of the size of the property and they will be looking to make compensation payments which span over 3 years, not just the last 12 months. They stated that letters will be sent out shortly to all local residents confirming this and local residents meetings will be set up shortly to co-ordinate this action.

    I’d just like to say a big thank you to the local media in picking up this issue and running with it, myself and local residents are extremely grateful. Thank you.

    Best wishes,

    Cllr. Ed Ruane
    Coventry City Council
  • lovesfarmbpha
    lovesfarmbpha Posts: 126 Forumite
    1.5.2 Exhaust air
    The use of exhaust air as heat source for heat pumps is restricted to buildings with mechanical
    ventilation systems. Installation of mechanical ventilation systems involves significant
    interference in the building. When it comes to retrofitting, this is a costly operation and
    consequently exhaust air heat pumps are merely a solution for buildings with existence of
    mechanical ventilation. The heat source itself offers favourable working conditions for the
    heat pump as the temperature level of the exhaust air is in the range of +20°C. The drawback
    however, is that the availability is limited to the airflow through the ventilation system. For a
    typical single family house this limits the heat output of an exhaust air heat pump in the range
    of 2 kWheating. An exhaust air heat pump for space conditioning will thus in almost all cases
    require additional heating. In order to overcome the drawback of the limited heat output some
    HEAT PUMPS – TECHNOLOGY AND ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT July 2005: Part 1
    7exhaust air heat pumps are designed for dual heat sources. These hybrid systems may be
    designed for connection to a shallow borehole, horizontal ground coil (Figure 5) or ambient
    (outdoor) air. Some exhaust air heat pumps are designed solely for sanitary hot water heating.
    http://ec.europa.eu/environment/ecolabel/about_ecolabel/reports/hp_tech_env_impact_aug2005.pdf
  • lovesfarmbpha
    lovesfarmbpha Posts: 126 Forumite
    http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4152174.htm?CMPID=GS001&_%24ja=cgid%3A6964414865

    Here is a 2kw heater similar to the output of the NIBE 360 exhaust air heat pump. Your home will need to be a super airtight bit of kit to make that heat your home & heat a 170 litre tank to 55C . Not forgetting the wonderful 150m3 of fresh outside air PER HOUR,non heated outside air that pours into your home as the NIBE 360 is a mechanical vent system also.
    Open a window for ventilation and buy the fan heater,much cheaper.
  • UPDATE from BPHA rep meeting on Friday.
    We have received info ref the BPHA meeting updating the situation so far.
    250 boilers in total across the 3 estates , to date 45 (more like 50)have been removed.
    A further 100 are being investigated due to high bill concerns and fitted with monitors. The remaining 100 not fitted with monitors are being contacted by bpha to ensure house hold is ok and not suffering in silence
    Out of the 100 being monitored 50 have been re visited and data collected from monitors of which 30 of the 50 have been found to have bills beyond the considered norm.
    A decision by BPHA to remove these 30 will be made soon.
    We do not have address details of the 30 that may be removed.
    There are another 50 homes that BPHA have not collected the monitored usage from but on the previous 50 we can safely assume 50% will have similar high bills.
    This would bring the number of NIBE exhaust air heat pumps removed to about 110 out of 250 homes ,that is 44% found to be not fit for purpose.In normal business some one would be sacked!
    So far over £100,000 has been paid in compensation to tenants and payments will continue from BPHA as no dead line has been set.
    BPHA confirm that a variety of house types including flats have had the Nibe system removed and it no longer applies to just large homes.
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