Chip 'n' Pin - A Quick Guide Discussion Area

Paul_Varjak

What is wrong with "chip 'n' pin 'n' signature" for increased security, other than it is very difficult to say?

Perhaps it might be called "chip 'n' pin 'n' sig"?

david78

I have two "chip and pin enabled" cards now. One from NatWest and one from Halifax (The "one card"). I know these are definitely chip and pin enabled because they are new cards and I got a letter sent out with each telling me my new PIN and explaining they are chip and pin enabled.

In both cases I have tried to change the PIN using ATMs in the branches, and in each case it doesn't work. The machines just spit out "you entered the wrong original PIN". (I didn't, honestly). Halfiax have sent me a "reminder" of the PIN for the card and guess what its the same. I tried to change it but it just doesn't work. The customer services people don't seem to be able to help much. Any thoughts, has anyone successfully changed their pin on one of these cards.

David.

student100

Have you tried asking in the branch where the cash machine you're using is located? It may be that particular machine has not been fully upgraded to C&P? ???

It's odd that machines owned by two different banks in two different branches should do this otherwise ???

James

The evidence is produced by the banking industry itself (http://www.cardwatch.org.uk/pdf_files/cardfraudfacts03.pdf).

You will see that fraud at ATMs rose by 37%. and according to the Police Commissioner is not going away.

It's difficult to explain fraud at a Cash Machine unless the fraudster has a card (genuine or cloned) and the PIN for that card.

Local and regional papers from Exeter to Aberdeen are reporting the theft of PINs by use of mini-cameras at ATMs.

The choice is still the card holders, CHIP & PIN, or CHIP and Signature? Why then are card issuers not being totally honest and telling the public just this?

Unless you can make an informed choice then you may become a victim and victims of such crimes are single voices.

James

COS

I would like congratulate the great majority of posters to this long thread for avoiding the temptation to refer to "PIN number" which, as we know, is a "tautology". [I counted just 19 occurrences in 15 out of the 108 replies]

[A related one is "ATM machine".]

Now I don't get hot under the collar about this - especially since the worse culprits seem to be banks themselves, but I just want to encourage people to carry on the good work. Once you have trained yourself to avoid saying "P** number" it quickly becomes natural.

Personally, I try to write down the PIN for any new credit card in a simple code on the letter confirming acceptance (which arrives before the PIN slip). This way I can destroy the PIN slip as instructed, knowing the information is safely accessible.

Recently Tesco sent out a "PIN reminder" and I suspect other banks will do the same if you ask for this. If you find the PIN slip in the meantime you can still use it - so this is better than requesting a new PIN - which effectively blocks the use of the card.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ???

James

Cash Machines Hit: Lowest common denominator a PIN is required to carryout such crimes: All the following were reported within the last 30 days.

Devon & Cornwall (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/3812911.stm)

Aberdeen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/3819085.stm)

Sheffield (http://www.sheffieldtoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=58&ArticleID=806447)

Carlisle (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/viewarticle.asp?id=104859)

Wrexham (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/viewarticle.asp?id=104859)

I’d bet that at least 90% of the above cases were cloned debit cards, or banks own savings cards. Very few people use a Credit Card at Cash Machine. This will soon change when the use of PINs with credit cards becomes more common practice.

Used my Chip & Signature Card in Morrisons yesterday, they were having problems with their chip readers! The till operator reverted back to the magstrip. Safeway today, it took simply ages for the card to be verified. The check-out girl said they (chipped cards) were a nightmare!

James

VelvetGlove

I’d bet that at least 90% of the above cases were cloned debit cards, or banks own savings cards. Very few people use a Credit Card at Cash Machine. This will soon change when the use of PINs with credit cards becomes more common practice.

No offence James, but I think you are exagerating the point slightly in an attempt to give more credence to your viewpoint. The majority of people know that if they draw cash using their credit card then they will pay a commission fee plus daily interest from the date of the withdrawal to the date of full repayment of that amount to their account. I really don't believe that people being more aware of a PIN for a specific card will mean they forget the arm & a leg it will cost them to draw cash using it. The people who are likely to draw cash from an ATM with their credit card are already doing it.

The attachment of devices to ATMs has been an ongoing problem for at least 10 years as I was aware of it when I worked in London. Banks are coming out with alterations to cash machines to make attaching devices a lot harder (I won't say impossible as if people want something bad enough then they will eventully find a way). A raised lip on the card insertion point is just one of the things you will see on a growing number of machines. The cloning of cards seems to have become more prevalent in recent years but I really don't envisage a tremendous impact in card fraud the way you describe it. Neither do the banks or they wouldn't have undertaken this major fraud initiative.

Used my Chip & Signature Card in Morrisons yesterday, they were having problems with their chip readers! The till operator reverted back to the magstrip. Safeway today, it took simply ages for the card to be verified. The check-out girl said they (chipped cards) were a nightmare!

I would be shocked silly if it worked perfectly straight away. It was trialled in a large town & although doing a trial can highlight some issues, it will in no way flag up problems which can expect to be encountered in a national rollout. If you can remember back to when Switch cards were first launched, that took a while to settle down as well. At least the retailers can revert to the magstrip when necessary

Electric_Ant_2

A friend of mine has just come back from the States and says that they don't have the technology for Chip & Pin which has already been mentioned earlier on in this thread but she said her C&P card wouldn't go through the machines so had to resort to the old carbon copy receipts. I was wondering whether this was a wind up just to get an imprint of her card??? But in any case I'm now thinking I should make sure I have a non C&P card if I visit the US.

lee__48

Surely, if the chip on your card is damaged then it will be rejected by the machine and you will have to sign your name to complete the transaction. So, I could steal a card and scratch the chip then copy the signature to use the card?

The shop where I work has just installed chip and pin. Only a few cards in circulation seem to be chip and pin enabled. Lots of people I've asked don't know their PIN and I've had to get them to sign instead. A few people I asked, "Do you know you PIN?" have just told me their PIN. Then I have to politely tell them to enter it into the keypad! Are some people just stupid?

Lee

James

More evidence: Here follows a quote from the Suffolk Evening Star from a reader who had his card cloned.

"The machine worked as normal and I didn't notice anything suspicious at all – we put our card into the machine, took it out, got our money and went," he said.

"But it seems somehow someone has cloned our card and then taken money out of our account. My biggest problem is trying to convince our bank of that."

Full Article: (http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/Content/news/story.asp?datetime=22+Jun+2004+22%3A44&tbrand=ESTOnline&tCategory=News&category=News&brand=ESTOnline&itemid=IPED22+Jun+2004+08%3A44%3A22%3A500)

And how is this for brass kneck?: (http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=725132004)

A Pin with a credit card - Why?

To Martin: (From Chip & PIN - A Quick Briefing).

One quick final note. If you are still having problems with Chip'n'pin then it is possible to speak to the card provider and special provisions can be made for those with extreme dificulties

Martin:

What is conisidered as haveing a problem with a Chip & PIN Card?

SAQs (Seldom asked questions)
Is it compulsory to have a PIN with a new type Chpped Card or will my card issuer make a Chip & Signature Card available?

Tell me how I can obtain a Chip & Signature Card?

James