Chip 'n' Pin - A Quick Guide Discussion Area

System

With regards to credit cards and PIN's, I support the use of the PIN's for them, but would like to be given the option that I cannot withdraw ANY cash on them, under ANY circumstances. This would prevent their use to get cash out up to the limit of my card by a theif who learned my PIN. I suspect however, that banks etc will not be interested in providing this option.

As for cards/places that a c&p'd, my and my g/f's HBOS credit cards have been replaced and PIN re-issued automatically (expiry dates were at least 10 months away), our Barcklaycards and my Cahhot c/card has been done. B/card and CAhhot cards have been sucsefully used. The store used were Safeway, Asda and my g/f said she has used one elsewhere, but cannot remember where.

G

IFLY

Call me Cynical and I apologise if this has been touched on before but:

The only people who are protected from fruad with Chip and Pin are the banks and the retailers.  The individual is NOT protected.  The bank will say you must have disclosed your pin.  The smaller retailers don't seem verify that it is your card (they never looked at the signitures!).  I recently went to a shop and experimented with my wifes card.  They didn't even look at it.  SO who is the loser.  The individual.  

The individual has always had protection against theft and misuse of the card.  In the some ATM machines they have cameras.

Sorry I don't have faith in the system to protect me as an individual.  

Someone could steal my Pin number from over my shoulder and then try and lift the Handbag/wallet. ( I don't use handbags. Male you see!!)

Any thoughts on this observation?

James

IFLY, you are absolutely correct. Do what I’ve done and demand a Chip & Signature Card. It’s a lot more consumer (cardholder) friendly when it comes to liability issues.

Card Issuers are not very forthcoming with information on Chip & Signature Cards.
The RNIB carried out market research and their findings are published at the following URL.
(http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/PublicWebsite/public_mysteryshopping.hcsp#P74_3782)

I wonder what other Consumer Organisations have to say about this? They too are quite muted on this subject.

IFLY

Hi James,

I think the BBC and any other consumer TV programme makers should investigate this.  I saw this flaw straight away when banks said it would reduce fraud.  No mention of increasing consumer protection!!!!

Looked at the link.  V interesting.

Ian

IFLY, you are absolutely correct.  Do what I’ve done and demand a Chip & Signature Card.  It’s a lot more consumer (cardholder) friendly when it comes to liability issues.

Card Issuers are not very forthcoming with information on Chip & Signature Cards.  
The RNIB carried out market research and their findings are published at the following URL.
(http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/PublicWebsite/public_mysteryshopping.hcsp#P74_3782)

I wonder what other Consumer Organisations have to say about this?  They too are quite muted on this subject.  

James

IFLY, (Any reader).

Would any reader like to call their card issuer and ask how you can get hold of a Chip & Signature Card? When asked tell them you have difficulty with a PIN and you’d rather not disclose what this difficulty is. It will be interesting to see their replies. Please post your results they may help many interested parties and could make a difference.

Egg has supplied a Chip & Signature Card, but it wasn’t easy to acquire. It works some of the time. Nationwide have been slightly more facilitating, offering a debit card (non-chipped) that can only be used at banks own cash machines. This card doubles as a cheque guarantee card. Nationwide have issued me with a Chip & Signature credit card.

No doubt Chip & PIN (C&P) will reduce levels of certain types of fraud, but because a PIN does not provide a physical auditable trail, victims of PIN based fraud will have huge sums hanging over their heads.

Types of Card Fraud
Counterfeit. Chips would in theory wipe out the use of counterfeit cards but only if every single plastic card carried a Chip, and every single vendor who accepts payment by plastic has a Chip reading terminal. Retailers in this country, never mind overseas choose on commercial based decisions whether to update to C&P or not. Banks have no plans at present to chip Banks Own Savings cards, Basic Bank Account Cards, Store Cards etc, yet PINs are being forced onto cardholders.

Unfortunately chipped cards can still be cloned and used with a stolen PIN in non-compliant C&P cash machines, or in Post Offices. Where does this leave a victim?

Lost & Stolen: In theory blocks on stolen cards should be in near real time and this is very welcome. Downsides here are: Crooks will be putting even more effort into acquiring high-value credit cards. Get hold of a card and PIN and who will challenge them at a cash machine, or when they’re in a shop spending up to the limit of the card?
If the victim has used their card and PIN once while shopping or withdrawing money and they don’t discover the loss for several days or weeks, how can they prove they didn’t make the purchases or cash withdrawals?

Lost in Mail. New cards and PINs are being sent out without any check ever being made that they’ve reached the true owner. We’ve seen the evidence over postal votes going astray, or being sent to the wrong people and this was in a limited trial in four regions. 144 million cards and 144 million PINs, it’s an awful lot of mail.

Identity Theft: Use a stolen ID to acquire a Card & PIN and crooks can hit cash machines or buy expensive goods. The worse that can happen to a crook is their card will be withheld. You would expect to see this type of crime rising. It’s expected that this type of crime will rise. Where does it leave the victim?

Cardholder Not Present (CNP), (Goods & services bought on the Internet, goods bought by mail order, telephone or fax). It’s widely accepted that C&P will do nothing whatsoever to deter CNP fraud.

ATM Fraud. Already covered extensively. In the vast majority of ATM frauds, a PIN is used. I would say if you haven’t got a PIN with your card (and it is YOUR choice), then PIN based fraud just doesn’t happen. How can first party PIN based fraud be prevented?

James

Galstonian

Lots of information can be found on chip and pin here: https://www.chipandpin.co.uk

Specifically, there is a section for anyone with a disability that may affect their ability to use C&P here: http://www.chipandpin.co.uk/faqs/disabled.html though it does tend to always lead to "speak to your bank" regardless of what the question is.

HTH

James

Re Chip and Signature Cards. Has any reader as yet spoken with their card issuer on this subject?

Here follows advice given by the Chip & PIN organisation in an interview with the BBC in May:

“Customers who would rather carry on signing receipts can carry on doing so with a ‘chip and signature’ card. These need to be ordered from a customer’s card issuer in advance.

Credit and debit card customers should get in touch with their bank or card issuer if they have specific questions about chip and pin or if they would prefer a ‘chip and signature’ card.”

Details at:
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/intouch_factsheet_20040504.shtml)

This appeared on another forum:

If a PIN transaction is made on my card after it has been stolen, how do I deny that it was me who made the transaction? Anyone with access to the PIN becomes an authorised user. I don’t regard PIN codes as being overly secure, and this might be a step backwards in security.”

The Chip & PIN scheme has the effect of shifting liability to the consumer. “ As the bank’s will say that any ‘phantom withdrawals’ are down to the customer – because of course Chip and PIN is secure. This is becoming a problem in France and elsewhere in Europe, where people are being deprived of compensation (and sometimes arrested) after complaining about phantom withdrawals/CC charges.”

So although depending on a chip – rather than a magnetic stripe – is more secure, if you do become the victim of shoulder surfing the new scheme might mean you’re in even more trouble.

James

System

I have recently received my updated and much "safer" chip n pin credit cards. However, I had no concerns over security before because I new that any transaction that could not be supported by my signature could be rejected by me. Now though if someone should just happen to hit on my pin number the pin will be regarded as a genuine signature and I pay for the goods. I am told by the card companies that they would take my word for it that it was a fraudulant transaction and credit me, but this mean that the retailer would be charged in which case he will be agreived. How safe is their word?, would the retailer come after me using the credit card companies arguments for the pin as his reasons for asking me to pay. It leaves me feeling the new cards are actualy not as secure as the old. I recently refused to put my pin into a machine because the store could not convince me that the security camera on the ceiling above me was swithed off. ???

James

Has any other reader of this forum asked their card issuer about Chip & Signature, or applied for a Chip n Signature Card?

Would appreciate your findings and experience.

James

James

At last a reporter has picked up on this issue:

PIN The Signature On The Chip

http://www.theinquirer.net/Default.aspx?article=17247


Shouldn't the 84% in the above article be informed that they have a choice: Chip & Signature or Chip & PIN?

James