Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

JerryW

Hmm, oh dear Lisa, it is all rather a mess. I haven't any silver bullets but my thoughts are:

- the only way to find the capacity of a tank accurately is to see the figure on the rating plate attached to it. Mine is 2120l and it may be yours is too. Take a photo of the plate.. you might already have one, LPG Save asked me to send them one.

- it would definitely be worth trying to speak to Robert Flaxman. If it were me I would try to telephone him rather than email. He is very experienced, a former employee of Flogas mind you, but no reason to suppose he would not give you an impartial view.

- On my tank the difference between 45% and 75% is 636l. Wonder why the driver chose 75% and not 85%? If he had, as is usual, that would have been 848l which is very close to what you were charged for.

- the slip really should have given the litres actually supplied, but it does not. Only the corrected figure ..

AdrianC

I've just had a delivery this morning from Avanti. On the slip, it says "converted to +15degC", and a before and an after total from the truck's delivery meter. The after minus the before equals the litres claimed to have been delivered.

But... remember Boyle's law I mentioned above? That's where that "converted to" comes in. Each litre on the clock may not actually be 1,000ml through the meter. It's converted from the actual temperature to the nominal volume at +15degC. Gases are more accurately and consistently measured by weight, because that doesn't change. One kilogram of propane is just under 2 litres... nominally, depending on pressure and temperature. But you can't easily measure weight as it's dispensed, but you can measure volume.

My tank's only a little one, 1,410 litre water volume. So each 1% on the mildly iffy and very low-tech gauge is about 14 litres - 85% nominal max fill is just under 1,200 litres. I had 1,140 delivered. (Yes, it was a bit too low... Yes, I do need to check it more often...)

collectors

Lisa_mj said:

Hi

Nervous LPG newbie here.  Sorry for the long post.

Just coming to the end of my first ever 2 year lpg contract (which was with Calor 38.9ppl year 1, 42.4ppl in year 2).  

Average usage is 1,600 litres pa (actual usage based on the two top ups I've had whilst with Calor).  Some suppliers have said that sounds low but I'm guessing it's because we've super insulated the house during a major renovation programme and have a new efficient boiler.

Unfortunately I got caught out by Calor's auto top up (which I’m certain I opted out of) and so currently have a fullish tank (c.75%).  I would have had enough gas to last me until after I’d negotiated a new contract with them or with a new supplier, so at 42.4ppl it's probably cost me over £100 more than it needed to.  You live and learn.

I’ve done my shopping around and feel very indecisive so would really value some thoughts and advice from others who have more years experience in this market than me.

These are the options (in no order):

1.       Calor – 39.4p in Year 1, 42.9p in Year 2 (avg 40.7p), tank rental £92pa

2.       Flogas – 33p in Year 1, 36p in Year 2 (avg 34.5p), tank rental £80pa

3.       Avanti - 32p in Year 1, 37p in Year 2 (avg 34.5p), tank rental £110pa

4.       Northern Energy – start rate 35ppl*, tank rental £99pa, *variable rate tracks wholesale rates both up and down (increases capped at 3p in any 6 month period so 12p over 12 months)

5.       Do nothing now, shop around again when I need gas (probably end March/early April)

 Calor – no negotiation on rate, not interested in keeping my business so I’ve discounted them

Flogas – comfort of a fixed rate (no benefit if rates fall), although a bit worried about comments on here about clause 8.3 and 8.4, also about bad customer service experiences

Avanti – comfort of a fixed rate (no benefit if rates fall), I’ve heard they also have a surcharge clause in their contract that means rates could go up even though it’s supposedly a ‘fixed’ contract, is this true?  Comments on here suggest marginally better customer service than Flogas

Northern – variable rate feels risky but get benefit if rate falls, like the fact that it is a local business and have a low run out ratio, however I don’t need gas at the mo so if this is my preferred option I can wait until I need gas and see what rate is then compared to the big names (but if rates rise then I’ve lost out on the good rates I’ve been offered by Flogas and Avanti).

Service is important to me as I’m totally dependent on lpg for both hot water and heating, running out of gas is not a situation I ever want to be in.

Do I go with Flogas or Avanti now as their rates sound good or shop around again when I’m nearer to needing gas (allowing a few weeks for a switchover to be effected).  I’d welcome any wise words or advice.

Oh how I miss mains gas!

Thanks for reading and Happy Christmas

Remember a lot of company's buy futures. My brother was a trader in a company he worked for that dealt with copper components. They needed to know what price copper would be next year so they could get the catalogue ready for printing. So they would buy copper next year at todays prices if they thought it was a good idea. But this can back fire & he may of brought at the wrong time. "gamble" Gas company's do the same thing & if they get it wrong, they pass it onto the customer & if they get it right, they keep it. 

Lisa_mj

As promised, an update on my recent issue with a post top-up tank reading. 

I had a long and very helpful chat with Robert who fully understood both the issue and my uncertainty/frustration with it.  Whilst I still have reservations, and am still unhappy with the response from my supplier, I was reassured by the chat with someone who has years of experience and knowledge of every aspect of the supply of bulk tank LPG and is genuinely committed to providing good customer service. 

I will continue to monitor my usage closely (I take a reading every week).  The real test will come next time I top up, which I hope will be a fair few months away now that Spring is most definitely in the air.

Thanks again to all of you who have kindly responded to my previous posts, very much appreciated

Andrew1066

A question if I may for those of you have also had oil central heating in the past.

Knowing what you know now, if you were starting from scratch would you choose  oil or LPG 
MY previous house was on oil, but the current house is on LPG.
In my area, the oil prices are openly advertised and you can just pick and choose the supplier with the cheapest price as / and when you need to top up. In addition there is none of the LPG supplier skulduggery that seems to go on. 

Which would you choose from scratch and why please?

Juleszoemay

Morning! I wonder if anyone has any experience of taking a complaint with Flogas further. We are currently in the process of going through the complaints process. We had a tank installed by Flogas Jan 2018, and were on a 2 year contract at 38ppl. That ended in Jan 2020, they apparently sent us a letter (which they have emailed to me) advising us that we are coming to the end of our contract, we never received the letter by post and despite them having both our email addresses, obviously they never tried another route. That said, nothing in the letter refers to price, nothing to say, you'll move to our standard rate of... or anything at all. Actually we went up to 61ppl, unbeknown to us. They have mentioned in the email that after every delivery an invoice is sent with the amount of litres delivered and the price, we have never had an invoice, as we are paying monthly I presume. We have basically ended up paying £650 more over the course of the last 13 months, than we would have had we stayed on the old price, or recontracted. 
The other point I raised was that when I called flogas to discuss this, they offered a reduction from 61ppl to 49.5ppl, yet Robert Flaxman managed to recontract us, with Flogas at 36ppl, and that, to me, also makes no sense. They did not comment on this part of my complaint. 
Does anyone have any pearls of widsom here, or where to take it further? 
I have noted that the new contract states on section 8.4 that there will be on increase of more than 12ppl without them advising us of the price. Clearly that didnt happed, but I also dont know if the contract in 2018 was the same. 
Any advice would be appreciated Thanks, Julie

mcmullank

Juleszoemay said:

Morning! I wonder if anyone has any experience of taking a complaint with Flogas further. We are currently in the process of going through the complaints process. We had a tank installed by Flogas Jan 2018, and were on a 2 year contract at 38ppl. That ended in Jan 2020, they apparently sent us a letter (which they have emailed to me) advising us that we are coming to the end of our contract, we never received the letter by post and despite them having both our email addresses, obviously they never tried another route. That said, nothing in the letter refers to price, nothing to say, you'll move to our standard rate of... or anything at all. Actually we went up to 61ppl, unbeknown to us. They have mentioned in the email that after every delivery an invoice is sent with the amount of litres delivered and the price, we have never had an invoice, as we are paying monthly I presume. We have basically ended up paying £650 more over the course of the last 13 months, than we would have had we stayed on the old price, or recontracted. 
The other point I raised was that when I called flogas to discuss this, they offered a reduction from 61ppl to 49.5ppl, yet Robert Flaxman managed to recontract us, with Flogas at 36ppl, and that, to me, also makes no sense. They did not comment on this part of my complaint. 
Does anyone have any pearls of widsom here, or where to take it further? 
I have noted that the new contract states on section 8.4 that there will be on increase of more than 12ppl without them advising us of the price. Clearly that didnt happed, but I also dont know if the contract in 2018 was the same. 
Any advice would be appreciated Thanks, Julie

Hi Julie
Yes, I have sued them in the past for breach of contract.  Firstly, you need to source your original contract that lapsed and find out if there is a clause 3 Duration of Agreement and which states "Following the end of the Exclusivity Period the Agreement shall continue unless or until it is terminated by either party under the terms of the agreement".  If you have this clause, and did not receive a formal notice of termination from Flogas then you are entitled to be supplied under the terms of the original contract.  These contracts normally have a clause allowing an increase that is unlimited in instances where Flogas can prove (by evidence to Platts North West Europe) that the price of LPG has increased or in relation to increases in other costs 5 pence per litre.
Correspond with Flogas by letter and ensure that they are signed for and that you keep a copy of the signature from Royal Mail.  In all correspondance give them a reasonable time to respond (10 working days).  It is unlikely that they will respond so ensure that you continue to follow a process that you can justify if you need to raise a small claims.
If you want any further advice then feel free to message me directly and good luck.

Juleszoemay

mcmullank said:

Juleszoemay said:

Morning! I wonder if anyone has any experience of taking a complaint with Flogas further. We are currently in the process of going through the complaints process. We had a tank installed by Flogas Jan 2018, and were on a 2 year contract at 38ppl. That ended in Jan 2020, they apparently sent us a letter (which they have emailed to me) advising us that we are coming to the end of our contract, we never received the letter by post and despite them having both our email addresses, obviously they never tried another route. That said, nothing in the letter refers to price, nothing to say, you'll move to our standard rate of... or anything at all. Actually we went up to 61ppl, unbeknown to us. They have mentioned in the email that after every delivery an invoice is sent with the amount of litres delivered and the price, we have never had an invoice, as we are paying monthly I presume. We have basically ended up paying £650 more over the course of the last 13 months, than we would have had we stayed on the old price, or recontracted. 
The other point I raised was that when I called flogas to discuss this, they offered a reduction from 61ppl to 49.5ppl, yet Robert Flaxman managed to recontract us, with Flogas at 36ppl, and that, to me, also makes no sense. They did not comment on this part of my complaint. 
Does anyone have any pearls of widsom here, or where to take it further? 
I have noted that the new contract states on section 8.4 that there will be on increase of more than 12ppl without them advising us of the price. Clearly that didnt happed, but I also dont know if the contract in 2018 was the same. 
Any advice would be appreciated Thanks, Julie

Hi Julie
Yes, I have sued them in the past for breach of contract.  Firstly, you need to source your original contract that lapsed and find out if there is a clause 3 Duration of Agreement and which states "Following the end of the Exclusivity Period the Agreement shall continue unless or until it is terminated by either party under the terms of the agreement".  If you have this clause, and did not receive a formal notice of termination from Flogas then you are entitled to be supplied under the terms of the original contract.  These contracts normally have a clause allowing an increase that is unlimited in instances where Flogas can prove (by evidence to Platts North West Europe) that the price of LPG has increased or in relation to increases in other costs 5 pence per litre.
Correspond with Flogas by letter and ensure that they are signed for and that you keep a copy of the signature from Royal Mail.  In all correspondance give them a reasonable time to respond (10 working days).  It is unlikely that they will respond so ensure that you continue to follow a process that you can justify if you need to raise a small claims.
If you want any further advice then feel free to message me directly and good luck.

Hi there,

So they have 'kindly' sent us our contract to prove that there was no section 4.8 about price increases. However the clause you mention is in there, I have screen grabbed it 
Should I let them carry on emailing me to try to tell me they've done everything they should, or shall I send a more formal letter? And if the latter, can I do this myself?
Thanks, Julie 

Juleszoemay

I kept thinking last night that surely, unless they tell you the prices are increasing, that they would remain as the contract stated?

mcmullank

Juleszoemay said:

mcmullank said:

Juleszoemay said:

Morning! I wonder if anyone has any experience of taking a complaint with Flogas further. We are currently in the process of going through the complaints process. We had a tank installed by Flogas Jan 2018, and were on a 2 year contract at 38ppl. That ended in Jan 2020, they apparently sent us a letter (which they have emailed to me) advising us that we are coming to the end of our contract, we never received the letter by post and despite them having both our email addresses, obviously they never tried another route. That said, nothing in the letter refers to price, nothing to say, you'll move to our standard rate of... or anything at all. Actually we went up to 61ppl, unbeknown to us. They have mentioned in the email that after every delivery an invoice is sent with the amount of litres delivered and the price, we have never had an invoice, as we are paying monthly I presume. We have basically ended up paying £650 more over the course of the last 13 months, than we would have had we stayed on the old price, or recontracted. 
The other point I raised was that when I called flogas to discuss this, they offered a reduction from 61ppl to 49.5ppl, yet Robert Flaxman managed to recontract us, with Flogas at 36ppl, and that, to me, also makes no sense. They did not comment on this part of my complaint. 
Does anyone have any pearls of widsom here, or where to take it further? 
I have noted that the new contract states on section 8.4 that there will be on increase of more than 12ppl without them advising us of the price. Clearly that didnt happed, but I also dont know if the contract in 2018 was the same. 
Any advice would be appreciated Thanks, Julie

Hi Julie
Yes, I have sued them in the past for breach of contract.  Firstly, you need to source your original contract that lapsed and find out if there is a clause 3 Duration of Agreement and which states "Following the end of the Exclusivity Period the Agreement shall continue unless or until it is terminated by either party under the terms of the agreement".  If you have this clause, and did not receive a formal notice of termination from Flogas then you are entitled to be supplied under the terms of the original contract.  These contracts normally have a clause allowing an increase that is unlimited in instances where Flogas can prove (by evidence to Platts North West Europe) that the price of LPG has increased or in relation to increases in other costs 5 pence per litre.
Correspond with Flogas by letter and ensure that they are signed for and that you keep a copy of the signature from Royal Mail.  In all correspondance give them a reasonable time to respond (10 working days).  It is unlikely that they will respond so ensure that you continue to follow a process that you can justify if you need to raise a small claims.
If you want any further advice then feel free to message me directly and good luck.

Hi there,

So they have 'kindly' sent us our contract to prove that there was no section 4.8 about price increases. However the clause you mention is in there, I have screen grabbed it 
Should I let them carry on emailing me to try to tell me they've done everything they should, or shall I send a more formal letter? And if the latter, can I do this myself?
Thanks, Julie 

In my contract, the pricing information was in section 5.7

If they have claimed that they sent a letter and you now have a copy, then you need to determine if the letter can be taken as formal notification of the termination of the contract.  If not and you have the same clauses that I have copied above then you are well within your rights to expect the price paid to remain the same.  

If this is the case then I would cease communicating by e-mail and send a formal letter outlining the events and asking for a refund of the excess that you paid over the contract amount.  Give them an opportunity to respond and if you do not get a satisfactory response then send a Notice before action letter stating that you seek a refund for the excess that you have paid or you will raise an action for recovery.  This is easily done and if you are based in England then you can use the MoneyClaimOnline service.