Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Juleszoemay

mcmullank said:

Juleszoemay said:

mcmullank said:

Juleszoemay said:

Morning! I wonder if anyone has any experience of taking a complaint with Flogas further. We are currently in the process of going through the complaints process. We had a tank installed by Flogas Jan 2018, and were on a 2 year contract at 38ppl. That ended in Jan 2020, they apparently sent us a letter (which they have emailed to me) advising us that we are coming to the end of our contract, we never received the letter by post and despite them having both our email addresses, obviously they never tried another route. That said, nothing in the letter refers to price, nothing to say, you'll move to our standard rate of... or anything at all. Actually we went up to 61ppl, unbeknown to us. They have mentioned in the email that after every delivery an invoice is sent with the amount of litres delivered and the price, we have never had an invoice, as we are paying monthly I presume. We have basically ended up paying £650 more over the course of the last 13 months, than we would have had we stayed on the old price, or recontracted. 
The other point I raised was that when I called flogas to discuss this, they offered a reduction from 61ppl to 49.5ppl, yet Robert Flaxman managed to recontract us, with Flogas at 36ppl, and that, to me, also makes no sense. They did not comment on this part of my complaint. 
Does anyone have any pearls of widsom here, or where to take it further? 
I have noted that the new contract states on section 8.4 that there will be on increase of more than 12ppl without them advising us of the price. Clearly that didnt happed, but I also dont know if the contract in 2018 was the same. 
Any advice would be appreciated Thanks, Julie

Hi Julie
Yes, I have sued them in the past for breach of contract.  Firstly, you need to source your original contract that lapsed and find out if there is a clause 3 Duration of Agreement and which states "Following the end of the Exclusivity Period the Agreement shall continue unless or until it is terminated by either party under the terms of the agreement".  If you have this clause, and did not receive a formal notice of termination from Flogas then you are entitled to be supplied under the terms of the original contract.  These contracts normally have a clause allowing an increase that is unlimited in instances where Flogas can prove (by evidence to Platts North West Europe) that the price of LPG has increased or in relation to increases in other costs 5 pence per litre.
Correspond with Flogas by letter and ensure that they are signed for and that you keep a copy of the signature from Royal Mail.  In all correspondance give them a reasonable time to respond (10 working days).  It is unlikely that they will respond so ensure that you continue to follow a process that you can justify if you need to raise a small claims.
If you want any further advice then feel free to message me directly and good luck.

Hi there,

So they have 'kindly' sent us our contract to prove that there was no section 4.8 about price increases. However the clause you mention is in there, I have screen grabbed it 
Should I let them carry on emailing me to try to tell me they've done everything they should, or shall I send a more formal letter? And if the latter, can I do this myself?
Thanks, Julie 

In my contract, the pricing information was in section 5.7

If they have claimed that they sent a letter and you now have a copy, then you need to determine if the letter can be taken as formal notification of the termination of the contract.  If not and you have the same clauses that I have copied above then you are well within your rights to expect the price paid to remain the same.  

If this is the case then I would cease communicating by e-mail and send a formal letter outlining the events and asking for a refund of the excess that you paid over the contract amount.  Give them an opportunity to respond and if you do not get a satisfactory response then send a Notice before action letter stating that you seek a refund for the excess that you have paid or you will raise an action for recovery.  This is easily done and if you are based in England then you can use the MoneyClaimOnline service.

I think mine is in section 8, which clause is the same?


The letter they attached to an email was merely a standard, its time to renew letter, no mention to price increase at all. I dont recall seeing this letter, but even if I did, I would have assumed that the contract would continue on a rolling agreement at the price we were paying, as they make no reference to any different?



They claim they send letter informing of price increases, and said this in their email 'price increase letters are sent separately the last increase applied to the account was 7th January 2019 to 61.94ppl'   They have not attached a copy of this letter, and I have never seen a letter. 

mcmullank

They claim they send letter informing of price increases, and said this in their email 'price increase letters are sent separately the last increase applied to the account was 7th January 2019 to 61.94ppl'   They have not attached a copy of this letter, and I have never seen a letter. 

Dependant on when they sent this letter, I think they would argue that it was clear that they were notifying you of the end of the contract (they are required to provide a minimum of 42 days notice).  This doesn't mean that you need to accept this and you can point out that they continued to charge you rental for the tank under the contract terms and therefore they were continuing the existing contract for which they cannot choose which parts to enforce and which to ignore.

Juleszoemay

mcmullank said:

They claim they send letter informing of price increases, and said this in their email 'price increase letters are sent separately the last increase applied to the account was 7th January 2019 to 61.94ppl'   They have not attached a copy of this letter, and I have never seen a letter. 

Dependant on when they sent this letter, I think they would argue that it was clear that they were notifying you of the end of the contract (they are required to provide a minimum of 42 days notice).  This doesn't mean that you need to accept this and you can point out that they continued to charge you rental for the tank under the contract terms and therefore they were continuing the existing contract for which they cannot choose which parts to enforce and which to ignore.

Well the plot thickens. They have just sent me this screengrab, which shows increases in Jun 2018, September 2018 and January 2019. On the basis that the 2 year contract started in January 2018, how is this even possible? 

They have also sent me 2 copies of letters sent for the September 18 and January 19 increases, that I have never seen before. And they are asking me for invoices I have received? that show the ppl. I have never seen an invoice, the only invoice I get is for the standing charge. 

Juleszoemay

Did anyone else have this level of increase in 1 year? 38ppl to 61.94ppl during 2018 with Flogas?

mcmullank

Julie
I think you need to get a statement of account from Flogas as a starting point.  This should show you all your payments, deliveries and charges.  You can then use this as evidence that Flogas have been in breach of contract.

Juleszoemay

mcmullank said:

Julie
I think you need to get a statement of account from Flogas as a starting point.  This should show you all your payments, deliveries and charges.  You can then use this as evidence that Flogas have been in breach of contract.

Thank you Indeed, I am unable to see pre March 2020 on my online account, as after a year they drop off! 
How much can they legally increase the ppl by in the contract period? Is it open ended, but you can terminate if you like? I assumed, maybe naively, that if you contract for 2 years, the cost is the same for those 2 years. God, what have I signed up for this time!! I recontracted with Flogas (through Robert Flaxman) in February. What even is the point having a contract if they can just charge what they fancy?!

JerryW

Juleszoemay said:

Did anyone else have this level of increase in 1 year? 38ppl to 61.94ppl during 2018 with Flogas?

Julie, I sympathise with your predicament and I don't want to be negative, but you do seem to have been asleep at the wheel, rather. This forum can comment on specific issues but what I would recommend in your case is that you get someone you trust, who is financially aware, to sit down with you as a first step and go through whatever paperwork you have. Then you can compile a list of what is missing, and ask Flogas to provide it. Only then will a cause of legal action present itself, assuming there is one.

JerryW

Juleszoemay said:

How much can they legally increase the ppl by in the contract period? Is it open ended, but you can terminate if you like? I assumed, maybe naively, that if you contract for 2 years, the cost is the same for those 2 years. God, what have I signed up for this time!! I recontracted with Flogas (through Robert Flaxman) in February. What even is the point having a contract if they can just charge what they fancy?!

Perhaps it would be best for you to read back over the last dozen pages or so here:

- did you agree a two year fix? If so Flogas is stuck with it. If not, not.

- the standard contract for all of the major providers includes the possibility of unlimited increases, if the underlying cost of gas increases. The previous posts will tell you exactly which clauses these are and how to get rid of them.

Jerry

Juleszoemay

JerryW said:

Juleszoemay said:

Did anyone else have this level of increase in 1 year? 38ppl to 61.94ppl during 2018 with Flogas?

Julie, I sympathise with your predicament and I don't want to be negative, but you do seem to have been asleep at the wheel, rather. This forum can comment on specific issues but what I would recommend in your case is that you get someone you trust, who is financially aware, to sit down with you as a first step and go through whatever paperwork you have. Then you can compile a list of what is missing, and ask Flogas to provide it. Only then will a cause of legal action present itself, assuming there is one.

Ha, I may have been, although I also made an assumption that an LPG supplier worked in a similar way to every other energy supplier, in that you contract for a period, and don't have to think about it. It is only £650, so maybe I should just get over it. My question is also, are they likely to hike these prices up again, as I'm in a new contract. As clearly the legality/complexities of a 'contractual agreement' seem to now be above my intelligence level  

Mister_G

As someone who has had bulk LPG for nearly 40 years (and been with at least 6 different suppliers), I can tell you that it is a minefield.  Flogas have a reputation for being one of the harder suppliers to deal with.  You really do need to get all of the facts together before challenging them legally.
I wish you luck, but there is some good advice from LPG users on this forum.
At least your current ppl is more reasonable, but do check about what increases can be applied to your "Fixed Contact".