Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

Lisa_mj

Apologies in advance for a bit of a lengthy post.

It’s been a bit of a bumpy start to my relationship with Flogas.

First issue was that Flogas incorrectly input my email address so I didn’t receive confirmation that the transfer had completed or a welcome pack.  After a lengthy call queuing time of 30 minutes on Monday 8 Feb, a very pleasant and helpful lady corrected the error and reissued the welcome pack.

Whilst on the phone, I arranged for a top up so that I was starting my contract with a full tank (not sure if that is wise but that is what I decided to do). 

My tank was topped up last Thursday 11 February and here starts my next issue:

·        Wednesday 10 Feb tank reading c45%

·        Thursday 11 Feb

                o   No of litres dispensed 859 litres (equates to 41% of total tank capacity)

                o   Tank reading after top up 75%

                o   Tank reading when full is c86%, which the reading would have been if 859 litres had been dispensed to the tank (45% + 41% = 86%)

My concerns are:

·        Either the post-fill up tank reading of 75% is not correct - the tank reading to date has always been reliable (I am a sad individual and have been taking readings every week for some time), why would it suddenly become unreliable after a change of supplier?

·        Or the volume of litres dispensed into the tank was not 859 litres – is the meter on the delivery wagon inaccurate?  Am I being charged for more litres than I have received?

I called Flogas last Saturday 13th (queued for 52 minutes to speak to someone).  The person I spoke to agreed something looked odd and said they would put a hold on the invoice, pass the query to the planners and would ring me back on Monday or Tuesday.  No callback so chased yesterday (Wednesday), the person had still not heard back from planners so would chase them and ring me back with an update yesterday afternoon.  Still no callback so rang again this morning and got exactly the same answer…still waiting for a response from the planners.

Whilst I’m grateful a hold has been put on the invoice, I’m still anxious about what has happened so will continue to chase.

Wondered if anybody else has experienced a similar scenario?  Any advice gratefully received.

JerryW

Hi Lisa

Sorry to hear you are having problems. The post-fill problem is not one I have had .. in an ideal world the meter would be replaced and the readings compared. It is a trivial job for an engineer but the meter belongs to Flogas so they would have to be the ones to do it.

I also recommend you open an online account on the Flogas website, if you haven't already. You can check that they have your account details right, and you can order gas that way too.

One last thing, the fill delivery ticket gives two different amounts. Looking at my last ticket, they were 1285.4 and 1324.7 litres. This means they delivered 1285.4l but they are charging me for 1324.7l .. they say it is to equalise the density to 15degC but I have long thought there is wiggle room there, for an unprincipled supplier. Who knows what the temperature was when delivered?

Which figure were you quoting?

thozza

Hi Lisa, I have always found the tank dial to be a bit erratic, the meter on the delivery lorry is calibrated so should be correct, you can ask Flogas for a confirmation of the last meter calibration certificate, not sure if they would provide it, but they should certainly have one 

As JerryW states, the amount actually delivered is corrected for temperature to +15 degrees, so if it was cold last week, the correction could be significant. Propane density is 1.88 at 15 degrees and 2.03 at -5 degrees or approximately 8% different. 

Lisa_mj

Hi JerryW & Thozza, thank you both for your helpful replies.

The Delivery Ticket states ‘Corrected to +15 degrees C’ and the Volume Corrected figure is 859 litres (which the delivery driver circled before passing me the ticket), it doesn’t seem to quote any figure (ie a pre volume corrected position).  If I've done it right, a photo of the ticket is at the end of this post.  

Interestingly, and just an aside, looking back at my Calor delivery tickets they made no mention of any 15 degrees C or any volume correction.

It was indeed very cold on the day the gas was delivered, around freezing, with snow on the ground.

 Thank you, I have set up an online account.

Thanks again, I will update when I eventually get an explanation from Flogas.

thozza

Hi Lisa, interesting to see that the density was entered manually, I have not seen that on any of my tickets. A reverse calculation suggests that the temperature with this density was 0 degrees at the time of delivery, using: - https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-C3H8-density-specific-weight-temperature-pressure-d_2033.html (propane is the major constituent of LPG).

Another point is that the tank dial seems to change with temperature, we don't use much LPG and we certainly don't make it, however I have a noticed today that I apparently have more gas than I had this time last week! 

Lisa_mj

I noticed that too when I had a closer look at the receipt this evening. 
Thanks for the reverse calculation info (way to technical for me so appreciate your expertise on this), 0 degrees is about right for the temperature on that day.  
We've just read the tank and it's reading c73.5% so 1.5% used in a week, which is low as we've been averaging about 3.5% usage per week since the previous fill up in November.

JerryW

Hmm, interesting. In other words, the ticket doesn't say how many litres were actually delivered at all, only what you are being charged for. Which is a bit naughty. Still I think we have the answer as it would have been significantly less than 859l. A clever person like Thozza probably could calculate how many litres were actually delivered.

Lisa_mj

Update
To say I'm incandescent is an understatement.

I have yet to receive a satisfactory explanation so my query has now been escalated as a complaint and the turnaround time is 7 to 10 days.  That is not what has upset me.

I was told during my initial call to Flogas on the 13 February, and also reassured in a subsequent follow up call, that the invoice had been placed on hold pending investigation of my query (this action was volunteered by the advisor rather than a request from me, I was impressed by that).  I understood this to mean that funds would not be taken from my bank account under the direct debit arrangement, how else would a reasonable person interpret this? 

Funds have today been taken from my bank account.  I have spoken to the same advisor that I spoke to on the 13th, firstly she doesn't remember saying that and she also said that putting the invoice on hold doesn't actually mean that a payment won't be taken (??!!).  I have asked for a manager to listen back to all of my calls and am awaiting a call back from a manager within the next 24 hours.

Incidentally, the response from the planners was that the gauge on the tank is never fully accurate and can be out by 1 or 2%.  Clearly this is not a satisfactory explanation as to why the gauge is  c10% less than expected hence escalation to a complaint.

Sorry to rant, it helps to vent.

Lisa_mj

Again, apologies for yet another long post.

I’ve had a lengthy reply from Customer Services, the crux of which is that they are satisfied all is correct and if I’m still not happy I should refer my complaint to the Conumer Dispute Resolution service.

There are some discrepancies in their response that cause me concern:

·        “The litres delivered are measured by a calibrated meter on the truck, which is accurate, this will be recorded and advised on the delivery note, please see the delivery note attached” – the delivery note attached to the response is just my photo of the top half that shows the volume corrected (the same as in one of my above posts). It doesn’t show anything about calibration of the meter on the truck nor does the response explain what ‘volume corrected’ means

·        “Your tank size is 2200” – it isn’t it’s 2100 litres as shown on my original Calor agreement, how can I trust anything in the response if even something as certain as the tank size is incorrect

·        “the gauge can be up to 5% off the actual percentage.  As long as the gauge is reading within 5% of the actual reading, the gauge is working as it should” – this does not explain the difference between a full reading of 86% and the actual post fill up reading of 75% ie an 11% difference

·        “our tanker driver noted you were on 45% and he filled to 75% . This would mean we have delivered 30% of your tank capacity which is approximately 660 litres. Taking into consideration the temperature and the fact the gauge is an approximate measurement,  add 5% - 10% (as explained above) . As the amount of litres delivered is within tolerance, we are confident the amount recorded for your delivery by the calibrated meter is correct” – the point above states a tolerance of 5% yet this point extends this tolerance to 10% which is contradictory.  Worth noting I have been charged for 859 litres which is 30% more than the 660 litres they state is the difference between the pre and post fill up readings (45% and 75% respectively)

It's worth noting that both of my top ups with Calor were in colder months (January 2020 and November 2020) and after both top ups the tank reading was 86%.

I plan to first send the email and my concerns to LPG Save, as they are the agents.  Presumably they are very experienced and will hopefully understand the issue and be willing to help and maybe mediate.

If that proves unfruitful, I will take it forward with the Consumer Dispute Resolution Ltd.

I am acutely aware that ultimately the time will come that I need another top up, I do not want this issue to still be unresolved at that time.

Appreciate it’s getting quite technical and not so easy to follow so if you’re still reading this, thank you!  If you have a view/thoughts that you’re willing to share, an even bigger thank you.

Happy Sunday!

Here is the response in full…

On the 11th February 2021, we deliver 859 Litres, the driver has recorded the percentage of the tank before filling was at 45%, and when he had finished filling, the tank read 75%. We understand that you are disputing the amount of litres delivered due to the gauge reading, we trust our customer experience adviser and our customer experience team manager have been in contact and discussed your concerns verbally with you.

We would like to re-assure you that we will only invoice you for the amount of litres that have been delivered, we will not invoice based on the gauge reading as they are not 100% accurate. The driver only uses the gauge as a guide to ensure we don’t overfill the tank.  He uses this alongside the fixed ullage.  The litres delivered are measured by a calibrated meter on the truck, which is accurate, this will be recorded and advised on the delivery note, please see the delivery note attached. Our vehicles onboard equipment is calibrated every 3 months as per regulations to ensure everything is working correctly.

In the colder months, we are able to fit more litres in the tank than we can do in the hotter months. During the warmer months heat gas particles expand, which means less litres of liquid gas are being transferred into your tank.  In addition to this he gauge on the tank is an instrument that gives an approximation only, therefore will not be 100% accurate, the gauge can be up to 5% off the actual percentage.  As long as the gauge is reading within 5% of the actual reading, the gauge is working as it should.

Your tank size is 2200, our tanker driver noted you were on 45% and he filled to 75% . This would mean we have delivered 30% of your tank capacity which is approximately 660 litres. Taking into consideration the temperature and the fact the gauge is an approximate measurement,  add 5% - 10% (as explained above) . As the amount of litres delivered is within tolerance, we are confident the amount recorded for your delivery by the calibrated meter is correct.

We believe our explanation and apology remains fair, therefor this email represents our final consideration of your complaint, however if you remain unhappy then please refer your complaint to the Consumer Dispute Resolution Ltd ( which a Government approved alternative dispute resolutions scheme), their details are as follows;

Consumer Dispute Resolution Ltd.
W: www.cdrl.org.uk

AdrianC

We think in terms of litres as being a fixed, unchangeable thing - but bear in mind you're dealing with a pressurised gas here, not a liquid. Gases can be compressed, liquids can't.

There's a relationship between the volume, pressure and temperature of a compressed gas - Boyle's Law... You may remember it from O-level or GCSE physics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyle's_law