Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

GrandadRob

Welcome to the world of LPG. I too was trapped in that Flogas cycle. They never put my price down ONCE in thirteen years, then I too found this thread, what a lifesaver, and eye-opener.

Firstly, DO NOT ORDER GAS FROM FLOGAS.

Now go looking for your contract, and check it's expiry date. They can only keep you under contract for TWO years, after that you are free to swap to another supplier.........changing over is FREE.

If you can't find a contract, phone Flogas and ask them. If it is more than two years old, stop it instantly.

If you have enough gas to get you to the end of the Flogas contract, then try to make it last. Running the tank empty is no problem other than your heating will stop working.

Now check for an alternative supplier. Read this thread carefully for all the tricks of the trade. Before you sign, put the contract details up here, we will all help. You are not alone, there are hundreds of ex-Flogas victims here........................:beer:

HateLPG

mfmaybe wrote: »

.....because Flogas have just told me my current per litre price is 73p. :eek:

Firstly, welcome. And well done for landing here.

I will re-iterate everything GrandadRob has said - his usual sage advice :-)

Assuming that you have been in contract with Flogas for more than 23 months (there is a two-year MAXIMUM contract period, but don't forget that you need to give 28 days notice of termination, hence you can give notice of termination no sooner than 23 months after your contract started), you will need to find details of all companies that might be prepared to supply you, then phone round to get some provisional quotes. If you don't have one, and Flogas are "unable" to provide you with a copy of your contract do NOT be tricked into signing anything - just assume you are out of contract if you've been with them for more than 24 moths.

UKLPG (the trade body for UK LPG suppliers) has a supplier search at http://www.uklpg.org/advice-and-information/switching-your-lpg-supply/ where you just need to put in your postcode and it will (supposedly) give you a list of all suppliers in your area. There will almost certainly be others where you are - the Borders Machinery Ring springs to mind as one likely candidate (see my post at http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=42284086&postcount=853 ). Try to avoid telling any potential new supplier what you're currently paying, as they will use that as a "start point" to make you an offer that they think you will feel is acceptable.

Currently a "fair price" would be somewhere between 45ppl and 50ppl . Possibly a smidge higher, I fear, but certainly nothing like 73ppl (for reference, the current WHOLESALE price that your supplier will be paying is something like 33ppl!).

Also, note that it has become apparent that many of the big suppliers (i.e. BP, Calor and Shell) have become far more pernickety about tank siting of late and will often refuse to supply, or will require modifications to or re-siting of the tank before entering into a supply contract. The smaller, independent suppliers appear to take a more pragmatic view of such matters - the cynic in me might suggest that the "Big Four have latched on to this issue as a smart new revenue stream.

As soon as you are reasonably confident that you can find a new supplier at an acceptable rate (and you will) put Flogas on 28 days notice of termination immediately and make it absolutely clear that you do not want and will not accept any further deliveries. Do this in writing, and send it "signed for" so that you have proof of delivery. Once you have done that, stick a big notice securely on the tank, so that no delivery driver can possibly miss it (and take photos to prove your point) stating that all deliveries are suspended and Flogas have no authority to put any gas into the tank. Flogas are an underhand and sneaky mob at best, and you can bet that their delivery driver won't "see" any notice. Or worse still, will contrive to "lose" it in the nearest hedge. So make it BIG, OBVIOUS and IMMOVABLE (within reason).

I would also suggest that you read this thread as comprehensively as time allows. There's an awful lot posted here, and most of it is pretty good stuff. In fact I haven't found any other resource online with more good, factual information on domestic bulk LPG (you'll spot small amount of rubbish easily enough)

Now as far as your 73ppl price goes, if you are only 10 miles from Edinburgh, that is simply criminal. No ifs. No buts. No maybes. As I said above, the current wholesale price is about 33ppl and you should expect to be paying not much more than 50ppl as an absolute maximum. Indeed, as a new customer, you might even be lucky enough to get a "Brand New Customers Only" rate closer to 42-45ppl.

Personally, I would also be inclined to speak to Consumer Direct, Consumer Focus and/or your local Trading Standards, and make a formal complaint about your contract (if you can find it) and about the price you are being asked to pay. I have seen a number of Flogas contracts, and every single one that I have seen is technically an "unfair contract" in respect of their freedom to apply unfettered price rises (this is discussed at some length in post http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=42567354&postcount=895 and others in this thread). As you may or may not be aware, the OFT is currently undertaking an investigation into the Off Grid energy market and their report and findings are expected next month. I doubt they will say or do much of significance, but we can all live in hope :-)

Good luck kicking Flogas into touch, and please let us all how you get on.

mfmaybe

Thanks both - such helpful replies!

Will reply in full a bit later but just to say I've never signed a contract with them, because we didn't want to be tied in, ironically. But then I got far too lazy to do anything about it, and we always put off ordering until our tank was pretty empty, as it's so expensive. Like now . The reading is about zero. We also have an LPG hob. There is a bottled cylinder standing by, but at the moment we don't have a means to connect, so I may see if I can get our LPG guy to come and add a connector so at least we'd have cooking!

Does anyone know anything about Johnstons oils. They seem to supply domestic Bulk LPG locally but not sure if they are owned/affiliated with other companies.

Edited to say - we have an underground tank that I think is fairly new, so hopefully wouldn't be too big an issue in terms of siting? That said the top fills with water and we've asked Flogas about it and they have refused to deal with it. Not their problem apparently (so what I'm paying an 18p a day maintenance charge for, I've no idea).

And another edit! Flogas only let us order 1000 litres at a time as a minimum (it's a 2000l tank). Can they do this? As OH says we don't have a contract, but can they hold us to ransom in this way?

mfmaybe

Well I've just phoned the above supplier, I have been quoted a 46p/litre. They are family owned, it's not an introductory offer. It was based on a semi-high useage, but I said we were getting a new boiler so useage should go down and the guy said as we were so close to the depot that he wouldn't charge any more.

Obviously will read the thread and read the contract carefully regarding increases, but he did tell me they have resisted several offers to sell the company; and they are coming tomorrow morning to check the tank :T

So at winter useage, that will save us £100 a month. Unbelievable.

Oh we aren't on an automatic topup with Flogas luckily. Also I get my own back on them somewhat by not paying them for months after I get the bill . They are useless at chasing the debt, so I take full advantage.

What upsets me the most is my brother works offshore. He once commented that he'd just had to "do a flare" (my recollection of whatever technical thing he said) where he'd burned off enough LPG at the press of a button to heat my house for 10 years :mad:. I'm sure there was some technical/safety reason, but I wish there was a way he could fill his rig-bag with LPG each trip!

SD-253

Quick one, can you tell me your present prices specialy in Lincolnshire and better still on the Wolds. Will have enough LPG till contract ends but my supplier Energas have said they will be raising prices, So need to know wherever to fill up now and wherever I should consider changing supplier. Energas seem a decent company so in no rush to do so but the true definition of decent company is there prices. Thanks for your time JB

SD-253

jeepjunkie wrote: »

10 miles from Edinburgh... You won't be far from me then

We are still under contract with Calor till next Aug who in all fairness have very good customer service. 73ppl !!! thats about 20ppl above our last delivery earlier this year.

Reading HateLPG's post I couldn't help but chuckle. Since suspending topups we have put our own padlock on the tank, a copy of the letter lamimated to the tank that was sent 'signed for' suspending our topups as we only use it for cooking now the LPG boiler is in the tip Plus the tank has been engulfed by undergrowth so if anyone tried a sneaky delivery they may not find it Tank still at 70% so god knows when it will run out just using the hob???

Brilliant thread this

Landlord at pub use one large bottle every 6 month for cooking food. Does not do huge amount of food but no doubt uses considerably more than you..............A decade?????? I would be moe worried about them raising your tank charges. PS To give you an idea due to free wood I only used 47% (565 litres) in the last 18 month all on my central which I had on most days in winter for about 1-2 hours.

mfmaybe

Well the sad update in our saga is that the man from the alternate supplier came along - and said he can't supply us, as our tank is under a tree . It's an underground tank so I'm a little surprised it matters. I don't think he was trying to make a fast buck as he didn't talk about offering to move it. He just said the only other suppliers in our area were Calor and Shell, so it might be worth trying them to see if they will bend the rules more.

He then asked what I was being quoted and when I told him, said I was far and away the most expensive he'd heard of. He told me (as I've read on the thread here) that Flogas are causing big problems for his business by offering a current introductory rate of 42.5p. So he suggested shouting long and hard at Flogas, threatening complaints to LPGA, mentioning OFT/Competition Commission, and at least seeing if we can get a fill at a cheaper rate.

I'm not sure I even want to bother though :mad:. We are now looking into replacing our boiler with an oil filled one (we are about to replace the boiler anyway) as at least that would give us the flexibility to change suppliers. However theft makes me nervous as there was a lot of it about last winter.

This is all a bit unfortunate - as our gas ran out last night . Our entire fault for letting it run so low; but until I found this thread i thought the best we could save by shopping around would be a few pence a litre. So now we have no heating, hot water, or cooking gas; so may yet have to succumb to Flogas' astronomical rates for another fill :mad:

LittleVermin

mfmaybe wrote: »

<snip> He then asked what I was being quoted and when I told him, said I was far and away the most expensive he'd heard of. He told me (as I've read on the thread here) that Flogas are causing big problems for his business by offering a current introductory rate of 42.5p. So he suggested shouting long and hard at Flogas, threatening complaints to LPGA, mentioning OFT/Competition Commission, and at least seeing if we can get a fill at a cheaper rate.

I'm not sure I even want to bother though :mad:. <snip> :mad:

Sorry to hear about the tree, with the empty tank beneath it.

One possible route is to check out Border Machinery - as mentioned by HateLPG - to see if they use Flogas to supply. Another route would be to phone Mole Valley Farmers, based in SW England but who do deals across the UK, they tell me, using Flogas and Calor .. but take care about contracts. Joining MVF can drop the price appreciably - see here! You'd need to join the co-op to get the LPG deals - but for MVF it's only a tenner a year. Quote from MVF website: Please call us on 01769 576201, we may well be able to facilitate a better deal than you are currently enjoying.

Good luck!

PS Your generous donation to Flogas's bottom line of 73ppl was subsidising the wonderful, wonderful Flogas's introductory offers of 42.5ppl. Go Flo! BP did exactly the same to me 18 months back.

..

GrandadRob

Sorry to hear of your tree/tank problems. Do you own the tank, or rent it. If you rent it, then get the owner to move it to a legal location, or remove it altogether at their expense for having it sited in an illegal location. (or you will report them for previously filling a tank which is illegally sited) If you own it, then maybe abandon it. and take up a contract with someone who will, for free, provide you with an above ground tank at their expense. In the meantime get some cylinders whilst you make up your mind.

HateLPG

And then there were Tree.....
(I'll get my coat!)

mfmaybe wrote: »

Well the sad update in our saga is that the man from the alternate supplier came along - and said he can't supply us, as our tank is under a tree .

Sorry to hear about your arborial woes, mfmaybe.

GrandadRob wrote: »

If you rent it, then get the owner to move it to a legal location, or remove it altogether at their expense for having it sited in an illegal location. (or you will report them for previously filling a tank which is illegally sited).

That's an interesting thought! I've not heard of anyone trying this, but could be worth a go. Nothing ventured etc etc.

There was quite a bit of talk on here about 6 months ago about Tank siting and a lot of assumption, conjecture and experience, but very little hard fact. I decided to ask some very specific questions of the HSE try to clarify the situation. You can find their response here: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=42205844&postcount=844 but basically, if it is only an overgrown tree, there is the possibility that by getting it pruned (and keeping it that way), you would bring your installation within safety limits You would, of course, have to discuss with any potential new supplier whether or not that would be a satisfactory solution.

mfmaybe wrote: »

shouting long and hard at Flogas, threatening complaints to LPGA, mentioning OFT/Competition Commission, and at least seeing if we can get a fill at a cheaper rate.

Again, nothing ventured etc etc. But then Flogas are, in my opinion, a thick-skinned, seedy, cynical, money-grabbing bunch, so I doubt that would have much effect. I would however suggest that if they don't move, you make a formal complaint to Consumer Direct, your local Trading Standards and (if you are a subscriber to Which?) the Consumers Association, who actually have a surprising amount of power and the authority to raise "super complaints" with the OFT - http://www.oft.gov.uk/OFTwork/markets-work/super-complaints/ It is also worth knowing that a while back, Flogas were also rapped over the knuckles by the OFT as several clauses in their contract were ruled to be unfair. The OFT "reserved judgement" on Flogas pricing terms at the time, but suggested that they would be monitoring the situation (see post #582 in this thread for more details).

mfmaybe wrote: »

I'm not sure I even want to bother though :mad:. We are now looking into replacing our boiler with an oil filled one

Before you decide to branch out and leaf LPG altogether, I would also suggest that you take a long hard look at whether you could/would be better served by some of the modern low energy/renewable heating systems, rather than continuing to be reliant on fossil fuels (which are only going to get more expensive over the long term).

It's not for everybody, and won't work well in all houses, but it would be worth while at least to consider whether the likes of Solar PV (taking advantage of the Feed In Tariffs currently available) coupled with a Ground or Air Source heat pump could work for you. It may or may not be right for you or your property, but if it is viable, it will offer a far cleaner (and in the long-term, cheaper) alternative than installing a new oil-fired boiler. There is plenty of in-depth discussion on these and other alternative heating technologies elsewhere on this forum and online generally. And remember, if you do choose to go down that route make sure that you use a contractor who really knows what they are doing, and not just some local cowboy who has jumped on the "renewable" bandwagon.

And if you do decide to stick with LPG, there was some useful discussion on contractual issues and "gotchas" posted here thread earlier this year (if you have a look at my post #898 and related posts around that time by various other users, you should be able to pick your way back along that particular line of discussion without too much difficulty - there are too many good individual posts to list them all here!)

Good luck, and keep us posted