Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer

MrsTinks

Why are they allowed to stay? Because if BGs close them all we'll get accused of being power crazy dictators again

No seriously... it's something that has been discussed a lot and I think Martin has posted a LOT on various forums about why some things that aren't 100% moneysaving are allowed to remain and others aren't. BGs are never the last word on things but I know I personally would rather allow threads to run where possible whilst we have the server space to do so. No we don't read every thread - there isn't enough time in the world! So sometimes threads directly contravening the rules get missed (might I highlight the little abuse button thingy for everyone? pressing this WILL mean someone from MSE will look at the thread to determine if it breaks the board rules If you spot something PLEASE press it ) and other times it might be a very grey area so it's left or even gets a gentle prod to try and get it back on track.
What is and isn't money saving? Well getting dog training is money saving - educating yourself and picking a professional trainer that uses methods you are happy with can save you a lot of training fees not to mention costly vet bills from taking you dog (or someone elses!) to the vet after a dog fight because the dog wasn't trained properly etc etc.
So... the thread for now remains I think... so long as it can do so amicably If it goes downhill into outright fistycuffs again it will get closed and referred to Abuse to decide if it should remain, be removed altogether, re-opened etc.
I'd really prefer if it didn't have to come to that

MrsTinks

pboae wrote: »

I agree MrsTine, I know we don't see eye to eye on many things, but you always articulate your position well, and back it up rationally, without getting personal. I try to do the same, not always as successfully as you.

LOL you do just fine most of the time

Sorry I dragged you in to my example but I figured you wouldn't mind

Same with Tigerlily - who knows I come out in hives when people talk about pink coats no matter what dog it's for - let alone a beautiful Staffy :rotfl:
But disagree though WE might on dressing up dogs *shudders* especially in pink *shudders again* then I understand her reason for it even if I'd much prefer her to pick something like maybe blue or green whilst shaya needs a coat because her fur is extreemly thin due to her pre-rescue life



There will always be people who don't agree with me, or others, and that is life. I have been involved in rescue, I have even run my own forum for rescue (not on an MSE scale!) and I have seen and heard things that will make your hair curl... My PERSONAL view is that correctly applied CMs methods aren't cruel, but I respect others do not agree and they have the right to hold that oppinion. However the first rule on this board clearly states: Be nice to all money savers
So long as we stick by that then we can look at the other rules one at a time I am sure

batteryhens

Thank God someone else likes him! I can understand why some people don't like the electric collar, but in a rattlesnake situation as shown the other week, better that used to stop them than them getting killed! It is not used continually and should never be used by an amature. EVER!! That aside, his methods of leadership (as with Jan Funnel) are correct as anyone who has owned strong willed, dominant dogs will probably confirm. Some dogs just don't need it, but ones that are a danger do and there would be a lot less dog savaging in the news if stupid people made sure they and not their dog were head of the household. Time people were made to train & be responsible and not keep blaming their poor out of control dogs when things go wrong . It doesn't stop you loving and cuddling them, but on your terms not theirs....I'll get off my soapbox now!!. . . :eek:

UKTigerlily

MrsTine wrote: »

LOL you do just fine most of the time

Sorry I dragged you in to my example but I figured you wouldn't mind

Same with Tigerlily - who knows I come out in hives when people talk about pink coats no matter what dog it's for - let alone a beautiful Staffy :rotfl:
But disagree though WE might on dressing up dogs *shudders* especially in pink *shudders again* then I understand her reason for it even if I'd much prefer her to pick something like maybe blue or green whilst shaya needs a coat because her fur is extreemly thin due to her pre-rescue life



There will always be people who don't agree with me, or others, and that is life. I have been involved in rescue, I have even run my own forum for rescue (not on an MSE scale!) and I have seen and heard things that will make your hair curl... My PERSONAL view is that correctly applied CMs methods aren't cruel, but I respect others do not agree and they have the right to hold that oppinion. However the first rule on this board clearly states: Be nice to all money savers
So long as we stick by that then we can look at the other rules one at a time I am sure

I just saw this! lol Chaya now has a very smart & waterproof navy blue coat for her late night & early morning walks & will hopefully need it less & less as the weather gets warmer!

Ohh I can't even have a pink collar as being a black & red Dog (Tiger-Brindle) it doesn't look right :!!

mrschapman2be

Im sorry to say, I disagree with all the CM haters. I have watched every episode now, and agree with every one of his methods.

I only was reading this thread to read about the illusion collar, and stumbled accross posts claiming CM had 'choked' dogs to the point passing out! This really isnt true, and neither his 'booting' dogs in the ribs. You are merely seeing what you want to see, because I think you may have had a pre conceived impression of him, and jumped on the band wagon.

I have a VERY hyper active Jack Russell Terrier. I get excellent behaviour from him now, after watching the show. I do not smother him with affection, I simply let him come to me. I do discipline him, sometimes with techniques that I have seen on the show, but would never hurt him. He can be agressive with other dogs, so I feel it is my duty to protect other dogs if he is in an agressive state of mind. This does not involve choking him (although he chokes himself because he pulls so hard on the lead!), but I do need to get in front and 'block' him, to stop him fixating on the other animal and also hurting himself!

The reason I avoid the 'watch me' technique that Victoria Stillwell uses, is because I believe I am reinforcing bad behaviour by treating a dog just to look at me! I feel more like Im bribing the dog than training him. I get a better response if I use the shh technique, and if he is really non responsive, I will, like Caeser, touch him (without causing bruises).

I think there will always be strong opinions on how to train dogs, but please remember, if a dog really IS fearfull of a human, especially if they have been abused, the dog will not approach (infact it is more common for a dog to cower). I am a believer in the pack mentality, and believe it is our responsibility as owners to study how dogs would behave in the wild, and not teach them 'human tricks' we enforce, to get them to do little tricks for us. After all, a mother would not teach her pups 'watch me' or 'paw'! She would use touch, sound and energy.

foreign_correspondent

this thread is a blast from the past!!!

mrschapman2be wrote: »

I only was reading this thread to read about the illusion collar, and stumbled accross posts claiming CM had 'choked' dogs to the point passing out! This really isnt true, and neither his 'booting' dogs in the ribs. You are merely seeing what you want to see, because I think you may have had a pre conceived impression of him, and jumped on the band wagon.

um, no, I am afraid you are wrong in my case at least - I am someone who has a keen awareness of the risks of asphyxia in a professional context, and that is what I based my assesment on - much of CM's theory I find ok, but having carefully watched and analysed the video clip linked to earlier in the thread, I came to the conclusion that the risk this particular dog was subjected to was unnaceptable.

Believe me, I jump on no-one's band wagon.

mrschapman2be

foreign_correspondent wrote: »

this thread is a blast from the past!!!



um, no, I am afraid you are wrong in my case at least - I am someone who has a keen awareness of the risks of asphyxia in a professional context, and that is what I based my assesment on - much of CM's theory I find ok, but having carefully watched and analysed the video clip linked to earlier in the thread, I came to the conclusion that the risk this particular dog was subjected to was unnaceptable.

Believe me, I jump on no-one's band wagon.

Ok I just watched this clip over 3 times, and am struggling to find what is wrong with his method? Firstly I would like to know what 'lick smacking' is as Ive seen it mentioned and not fully understood what you were getting at?

Also the dog was jumping up, so CM blocked him from getting at a higher vantage point. If he didnt, he would have put himself, and the other dog at risk. The reason the collar is so high on the neck, is that the base of the neck (where the collar would usually lie) is very strong, and dogs tend to want to pull against something that low down on their neck. If the collar is higher, it is alot harder to pull, as the position of the head is higher up. I wonder what some of the people who are opposed to his methods would do in the same situation. Is there a safer way to avoid that situation with a strong breed like a pitbull? I would certainly use this type of collar on my own dog, as he pulls alot, and Im worried about the damage he is doing to his neck when he is doing this.

"I came to the conclusion that the risk this particular dog was subjected to was unnaceptable"

What about the risks for the other dog involved? What about the risk if the dog is not challenged, and left to behave in this manner? If the dog was left to carry on and not under proper control, and ended up biting another animal, it would have to be put down? Dont get me wrong, I do not agree with cruelty to animals when I see it, but I really do not agree that this dog is at risk.

Also the reason that these 'dangerous' dogs are put on the ground, is the same as the crate theory. In cases where the dog is anxious, I beleive the less room the better. As with a crate, they cannot move around and build more anxiety. Out of curiosity, do you think crates are cruel?

I dont think any harm was done to this animal, and I really cannot believe that if this dog was really in distress over the technique used rather than the other dog, that it would be allowed to be aired so blatently.

Just an opinion in any case

foreign_correspondent

I don't know what you reference to 'lip-smacking' referrs to, but it can be a sign of stress in dogs. I assume someone on the thread has made this point?

The collar higher up on the neck exerts more force on the vulnerable (and painful) areas of the neck. Being worried about the damage your dog is doing to his neck is not a good reason to look for a collar that sits higher, and on a more vulnerable area.

I have explained my opinions on the video clip at length in this thread and can't be bothered to again. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

As for 'what about the other dog' and other ways of avoiding this situation - there are planty of other, non-aversive training methods about. CM methods may work for some dogs, but I have no doubt that they are risky, and will make some dogs worse.

I don't think crates per se are cruel, but they, like anything else can be (mis)used cruelly.

mrschapman2be

foreign_correspondent wrote: »

I don't know what you reference to 'lip-smacking' referrs to, but it can be a sign of stress in dogs. I assume someone on the thread has made this point?

Yes someone else may have written this. I cant be bothered to go back through it again, but you seem to have a proffessional opinion on alot of issues, so I was interested to know wether you knew what it was, as I dont.

The collar higher up on the neck exerts more force on the vulnerable (and painful) areas of the neck. Being worried about the damage your dog is doing to his neck is not a good reason to look for a collar that sits higher, and on a more vulnerable area.

I believe it is, as when his collar is higher, he doesnt pull, so therefore the positioning of the collar should do him no damage, if used correctly.

As for 'what about the other dog' and other ways of avoiding this situation - there are planty of other, non-aversive training methods about. CM methods may work for some dogs, but I have no doubt that they are risky, and will make some dogs worse.

I am yet to try another method that actually works without praising bad behaviour! I also firmly believe in the need to have a 'pack leader' who uses touch and sound, rather than food to coach the dog into a calmer state. I think we may need to agree to disagree as you said.

I feel most other approaches are unnatrual to an animal, and are merely human psycology applied to dogs,who are really not respecting the leader of the home, but using them to get rewards of food and play. These rewards should be used as a treat for good behaviour, not as a bargaining tool.

joan_brennan

just a little additional info . There is some research here http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2009/6361.html
for any of those who would like to question FACTS

so sorry i am a bit poor at cut / paste stuff. the web site i visit has some really good info on. it is http://www.network54.com/Forum/235380/