Are new cars really as bad as they say?

seatbeltnoob

WellKnownSid said:

seatbeltnoob said:

WellKnownSid said:

seatbeltnoob said:

facade said:

Goudy said:

facade said:

seatbeltnoob said:

They depreciate like a ton because their maintenance costs are factored in. Just like toyota hybrids are so expensive for their age and mileage because they're reliable - they have a premium because it's going to cost the owner less than other cars to keep on the road. The battery replacement is a maintance cost on EV, its just a big cost that comes after 7-10 years of ownership. If theyre so dependable, reliable and cheap to service. They will be holding their value high and owners who buy them from new; will hold onto them and won't pawn them off on the cheap taking massive depreciation hit. The drop in prices reflect the fact that first owners dont want them any more and 2nd hand buyers dont want to touch them either.

The deprecation is a sign that all is not good with EVs. 

The big cost is the battery - which is often inttegrated in the floorpan of tesla cars - i dont know if the major car brands do this too. It is very expensive to replace the cells when they reach serious issues. People will scrap the cars by then. People run into engine issues with ICE cars. Nobody will pay £15,000 for a new engine and gearbox on their 2010 BMW (some might take a chance on a salvaged engine). With EV cars, that is the equation, reaches 10-15 year mark. You alwost definately need to fork out £15K on new cells. 

The trouble is EV cells are constantly evolving and improving. The EV maker probably wont make those same cells in 15 years time. So its not certain if it would be possible to replace the batteries on a 15 year old EV. 

As I see it the main reason for the huge depreciation of EVs is that they are simply massively, massively, massively overpriced to start with- just compare the prices of EVs in China (where they are made) to the UK (where they are bought).

Then we have low demand for second hand ones, caused by fear of expensive repairs, fire etc. range anxiety and being unable to charge at home.

If you are paying public charger prices for electricity, you might as well run a G-wagen or something, if you get a 2018 one the tax is the same as an EV and they do 20MPG!

People don't hang onto new ones as they are leased or PCP so they have to go back- people just don't pay £30K for a 20K car with their own money

Even if they are leased or on PCP, the customer will "pay" for the depreciation.

So on a PCP the difference between the invoice and GFV (plus all the interest) is what the monthly payments are based on.
This means you'll pay more in monthly payments for a car with high depreciation, as the difference between invoice and GFV is larger than one with lower depreciation.

As for lease, the lease payments will be worked out on the difference in values between the start and end of the lease. The bigger the difference, the more you will pay.

I understand that, otherwise the poor finance companies would go bust. They clearly don't so they are at least getting their money back. (Maybe not the wheelbarrows full of gold that they expect, hence their crying to the Government about some sort of tax payer subsidy, but clearly enough or they wouldn't touch them)

EVs are massively, massively, massively overpriced.

The finance companies clearly don't pay anywhere near these massive overprices when they buy them in for lease/pcp. So when they "depreciate" massively initially, the "depreciation" is all on paper, and the values are actually realistic.

My £30K (list price) EV cost me nearly £13,000 at 2.5 years old. Realistically, it should have been £20K new, which makes the £13K I paid about right- it would have been worth £10-11K. 

the PCP owner had to pay the depreciation for you. They owned it on a 2 year lease and paid £17K to use it for 2 years. 

Evs arent overpriced, they are priced at what it costs to make them + margin. they cost more than ICE on the same model bcause ICE cars are cheaper to make. 

If anything they are underpriced on the used market because people dont want them. All these second hand EVs are most likely were originally taxis, sold to do 25,30,40K miles a year, they can make the finances work because they will save money on fuel and it;s still in warranty so they can drive the heck out of them for 2 years and return the car. 

EVs have been massively overpriced.  Renault Zoe - priced at around £32k - which manufacturers claimed would be the absolute minimum cost of an EV due to the cost of manufacturing.

You're jumping into us have a mid back and forth. They are arguing that car companies are charging too much for brand new EVs and the used market is correcting it. Note the word overpriced, not expensive. Yes EVs are expensive. But overpriced means different. Overpriced is the car companies are asking for too much money for them with ridiculously inflated margins. The margins are similar on ICE and EV cars. A golf EV is £10K more than a ICE golf because it costs £8K+margin to make. 

That was the point of the comment. They are in denial that nobody wants used EVs thats why they deprecate so badly and take so long to shift. They were proposing that car companies just chargings too much over in excess of the normal margins for them. 

Well in my example I meant 'overpriced'.

The Zoe was never sold at that inflated price.  The tooling and production lines had been paid off years before.  Costs were dropping like a stone - the battery used may have been 2.4x bigger capacity than the original but the production cost of that battery had dropped by 9x in that same time period.

The e-Golf was an ICE car modified for an EV powertrain and with a very small production run.  The ID3 was widely reported to be 40% cheaper to build than the e-Golf as a result.

the price is the price. please dont insinuitate VW the biggest car company in the world has uneconomical cottage industry EV who can't build cars. 

EVs have an additional battery pack which costs a lot of money. get a price for a whole battery replacement and you'll see how much the cost is. A EV motor probably slightly cheaper than an ICE engine and gearbox, but the shell of the car, wheels, suspension, brakes, seats, computer, screens etc are all the same. 

Dont know anyone on a forum can purport to know more about building cars than car makers and ignore the fact that an EV has a £15,000 battery which an ICE has a hollow metal fuel tank instead.  

How can the two be the same cost to build? 

WellKnownSid

seatbeltnoob said:

Ectophile said:

The issue of EV batteries failing is massively over-hyped by people who want to stop EVs.

They very rarely catch fire.  It does happen sometimes, but nowhere near as often as petrol or diesel cars catching fire. When the Luton airport multi-storey car park burned down, the haters immediately said it must have been an EV.  It wasn't - it was a diesel Range Rover.

Unless you own an early Nissan Leaf, the batteries last for many years with only moderate degradation. The early Leaf had only passive cooling for the battery pack and coulk cook the batteries on a hot day.  The other manufacturers used active cooling.  Most EVs will fall apart from rust before the battery packs fail.

As battery packs get larger, they need charging less often, which will also increase the battery life.  If you have a car with a 200 mile (real world) range, and you use it for shopping and taking the kids to school, it may only need charging once a week or less.

!!!!!!. I'm a techie. Id love nothing more than to have an EV that works and lasts longer than an ICE. I work on phones, laptops refurbishment and I know the batteries on those lasts 3 years tops before you end up with degraded performance that require them to be changed out. Fine to use if you're always using them near power point, not much good if you are actually on the move a lot. EVs use battery cooling and heating to regulate temps and last a bit longer. They probably limit charges above 80% and give a "false empty" at 20% to extend the life. nevertheless the curent lithium cell tech means at some stage they battery will need to be taken out and changed.

When that happens it's almost certain the car would rather be scrapped - battery taken apart to salved the good cells to use as a power wall or something. Especially since ex lease EVs are so cheap - which EV owner is going to keep their old EV on the road replacing the packs? 

There is hope for EVs if solid state batteries become economically viable. They charge faster and last a lot longer but they're currently just something in lab tests right now. 

Yes, yes, three years tops.  But that's based upon a phone being charged every day.  With no active cooling.  Charging to the very top limit and discharging to the lowest point just to get every electron out of a small device.

Yes, as per your example - a worst-case 1,000 full cycles for NMC batteries like in the Zoe, it's 3,000 for LFP batteries by the way (e.g. short range MG4) - and you'll likely want to change the battery.

1,000 full cycles in a Zoe is around 220,000 miles.
3,000 full cycles in an MG4 is around 550,000 miles.

WellKnownSid

seatbeltnoob said:

WellKnownSid said:

seatbeltnoob said:

WellKnownSid said:

seatbeltnoob said:

facade said:

Goudy said:

facade said:

seatbeltnoob said:

They depreciate like a ton because their maintenance costs are factored in. Just like toyota hybrids are so expensive for their age and mileage because they're reliable - they have a premium because it's going to cost the owner less than other cars to keep on the road. The battery replacement is a maintance cost on EV, its just a big cost that comes after 7-10 years of ownership. If theyre so dependable, reliable and cheap to service. They will be holding their value high and owners who buy them from new; will hold onto them and won't pawn them off on the cheap taking massive depreciation hit. The drop in prices reflect the fact that first owners dont want them any more and 2nd hand buyers dont want to touch them either.

The deprecation is a sign that all is not good with EVs. 

The big cost is the battery - which is often inttegrated in the floorpan of tesla cars - i dont know if the major car brands do this too. It is very expensive to replace the cells when they reach serious issues. People will scrap the cars by then. People run into engine issues with ICE cars. Nobody will pay £15,000 for a new engine and gearbox on their 2010 BMW (some might take a chance on a salvaged engine). With EV cars, that is the equation, reaches 10-15 year mark. You alwost definately need to fork out £15K on new cells. 

The trouble is EV cells are constantly evolving and improving. The EV maker probably wont make those same cells in 15 years time. So its not certain if it would be possible to replace the batteries on a 15 year old EV. 

As I see it the main reason for the huge depreciation of EVs is that they are simply massively, massively, massively overpriced to start with- just compare the prices of EVs in China (where they are made) to the UK (where they are bought).

Then we have low demand for second hand ones, caused by fear of expensive repairs, fire etc. range anxiety and being unable to charge at home.

If you are paying public charger prices for electricity, you might as well run a G-wagen or something, if you get a 2018 one the tax is the same as an EV and they do 20MPG!

People don't hang onto new ones as they are leased or PCP so they have to go back- people just don't pay £30K for a 20K car with their own money

Even if they are leased or on PCP, the customer will "pay" for the depreciation.

So on a PCP the difference between the invoice and GFV (plus all the interest) is what the monthly payments are based on.
This means you'll pay more in monthly payments for a car with high depreciation, as the difference between invoice and GFV is larger than one with lower depreciation.

As for lease, the lease payments will be worked out on the difference in values between the start and end of the lease. The bigger the difference, the more you will pay.

I understand that, otherwise the poor finance companies would go bust. They clearly don't so they are at least getting their money back. (Maybe not the wheelbarrows full of gold that they expect, hence their crying to the Government about some sort of tax payer subsidy, but clearly enough or they wouldn't touch them)

EVs are massively, massively, massively overpriced.

The finance companies clearly don't pay anywhere near these massive overprices when they buy them in for lease/pcp. So when they "depreciate" massively initially, the "depreciation" is all on paper, and the values are actually realistic.

My £30K (list price) EV cost me nearly £13,000 at 2.5 years old. Realistically, it should have been £20K new, which makes the £13K I paid about right- it would have been worth £10-11K. 

the PCP owner had to pay the depreciation for you. They owned it on a 2 year lease and paid £17K to use it for 2 years. 

Evs arent overpriced, they are priced at what it costs to make them + margin. they cost more than ICE on the same model bcause ICE cars are cheaper to make. 

If anything they are underpriced on the used market because people dont want them. All these second hand EVs are most likely were originally taxis, sold to do 25,30,40K miles a year, they can make the finances work because they will save money on fuel and it;s still in warranty so they can drive the heck out of them for 2 years and return the car. 

EVs have been massively overpriced.  Renault Zoe - priced at around £32k - which manufacturers claimed would be the absolute minimum cost of an EV due to the cost of manufacturing.

You're jumping into us have a mid back and forth. They are arguing that car companies are charging too much for brand new EVs and the used market is correcting it. Note the word overpriced, not expensive. Yes EVs are expensive. But overpriced means different. Overpriced is the car companies are asking for too much money for them with ridiculously inflated margins. The margins are similar on ICE and EV cars. A golf EV is £10K more than a ICE golf because it costs £8K+margin to make. 

That was the point of the comment. They are in denial that nobody wants used EVs thats why they deprecate so badly and take so long to shift. They were proposing that car companies just chargings too much over in excess of the normal margins for them. 

Well in my example I meant 'overpriced'.

The Zoe was never sold at that inflated price.  The tooling and production lines had been paid off years before.  Costs were dropping like a stone - the battery used may have been 2.4x bigger capacity than the original but the production cost of that battery had dropped by 9x in that same time period.

The e-Golf was an ICE car modified for an EV powertrain and with a very small production run.  The ID3 was widely reported to be 40% cheaper to build than the e-Golf as a result.

the price is the price. please dont insinuitate VW the biggest car company in the world has uneconomical cottage industry EV who can't build cars. 

EVs have an additional battery pack which costs a lot of money. get a price for a whole battery replacement and you'll see how much the cost is. A EV motor probably slightly cheaper than an ICE engine and gearbox, but the shell of the car, wheels, suspension, brakes, seats, computer, screens etc are all the same. 

Dont know anyone on a forum can purport to know more about building cars than car makers and ignore the fact that an EV has a £15,000 battery which an ICE has a hollow metal fuel tank instead.  

How can the two be the same cost to build? 

Worldwide average production cost of a traction battery fell to $115/kWh in 2024 which is around £4,400 for 52kWh.  China are already producing LFP batteries for $60/kWh.  Prices will halve in the next couple of years due to more raw materials coming on stream.

Ditzy_Mitzy

vacheron said:

Despite working in the tech and transport industry, I have no faith whatsoever in the way new cars are going.

• Non-tactile touchpads everywhere, 3 clicks or sometimes more on a screen which requires you to take your eyes off the road for the most basic functions.

• Battery packs which will eventually need replacing at a cost of thousands, or even tens of thousands of pounds.
  
  
• "Coded" parts and modules everywhere, forcing you to use main dealers to access the necessary diagnostic equipment, all at their over inflated "main stealer" prices.

• Custom built and shaped digital dashboard screens and numerous embedded controllers, which when they fail 8-10 years down the line, and aren't being manufactured anymore, will basically consign your entire car to e-waste!

• Interior, mechanical and exterior build quality has fallen to make room for the software functions and batteries, yet they are still more expensive. 

I drive new cars regularly for work. and there is no way I want to buy one for myself.
Lease, perhaps, but personally leases aren't for me.

I buy cars 1-2 years old and keep them for at least 7-8 years. I have no desire whatsoever to purchase one with my own money which I have the responsibility to service and maintain for many years to come! 

As an aside, my mum took her 9 year Honda Civic to the our local main Honda dealer this week for a service and MOT(who she has a long relationship with as a repeated customer with 3-4 cars bought through them). 

During her visit chatting with the staff, she was categorically told to hold on to her car for as long as possible as as the new cars are not a patch on the cars from her era, by both the branch sales manager and the workshop manager! This sounds conveniently coincidental, but I swear 100% this is true! 

I think that says it all.

I've noticed issues with basic build quality, too.  My parents and I have got the same model of car, although mine is a generation earlier than theirs - twenty years old against ten.  The difference in the straightforward aspects of how well each is screwed together is night and day.  My car has got heavier doors, more robust rubber seals, better quality interior fabric, thicker carpet and a better finish to all the plastic.  The newer car is already showing signs of age, particularly with regards to wear to the controls and feels generally cheaper.  I doubt it'll still be going in another ten years!

Incidentally, the newer car is also riddled with electrical faults that mine doesn't possess.  

Arunmor

Porsche Slams the Brakes on EV Ambitions Amid Stock Collapse

Shares of Porsche AG plunged again on Monday, continuing a disastrous two-year decline. The venerable car company’s latest 8% drop came as it dropped its plans for a proposed battery-powered luxury SUV and said it was refocusing capital investments back to traditional gas-powered cars.

The company says this return to the real world as it actually exists will result in a need to take a $2.1 billion write down and force it and parent company Volkswagen to restate their full-year projections.

Such is the cost of years of virtue signaling about the glorious EV future which governments in Europe and globalist organizations like the UN and WEF have been trying to force on the world over the last decade. Now, with EV sales tanking all over the continent, European carmakers like Porsche, VW, Volvo, Renault, and Jaguar face economic ruin unless they migrate back to reality.

David Blackmon

Sep 23, 2025

daveyjp

Newer cars really are far better than what they were 40-50 years ago (points, carburettors anyone? Spark plug and valve gap to check regularly to ensure smooth running, WD40 and easy start in the boot), but I'm not sure the modern vehicle is far superior in reliability to those built 30 years ago.  

Lots of modern 'improvements' have caused me grief, in particular DSG gearbox, DPFs.  Now we have oil soaked belts disintegrating, adblue systems etc etc.  The nature of modern manufacturing with huge conglomerates such as Stallantis and VAG having the same components in lots of brands means a fault in one brand can affect many others.

What we do have now is the ability to consider which are the lemons very quickly, avoid brands within the conglomerates if there is an inherent fault, home in on brands which make reliable vehicles and offer good dealership experiences.  Both these are reasons why Toyota and Lexus top the ratings tables.

WellKnownSid

Arunmor said:

Porsche Slams the Brakes on EV Ambitions Amid Stock Collapse

Shares of Porsche AG plunged again on Monday, continuing a disastrous two-year decline. The venerable car company’s latest 8% drop came as it dropped its plans for a proposed battery-powered luxury SUV and said it was refocusing capital investments back to traditional gas-powered cars.

The company says this return to the real world as it actually exists will result in a need to take a $2.1 billion write down and force it and parent company Volkswagen to restate their full-year projections.

Such is the cost of years of virtue signaling about the glorious EV future which governments in Europe and globalist organizations like the UN and WEF have been trying to force on the world over the last decade. Now, with EV sales tanking all over the continent, European carmakers like Porsche, VW, Volvo, Renault, and Jaguar face economic ruin unless they migrate back to reality.

David Blackmon

Sep 23, 2025

That's because they're all switching to Renault:

Renault's EV sales were up a huge 887% in the first half, with the 5 and Scenic having joined the Mégane in the last year, and Wood anticipates that the arrival of the 4 this autumn will drive further growth, based on the early success of the similarly conceived 5, which has “really has brought electric motoring to the masses in terms of affordability".

...

“They're coming from premium SUVs, small cars, all different brands. Some of them are second cars, some of them are primary cars,” he said, citing the car’s retro-futuristic design as a key factor in its appeal. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/renault-5-84-electric-cars-uk-buyers-are-new-brand

born_again

Arunmor said:

Porsche Slams the Brakes on EV Ambitions Amid Stock Collapse

Shares of Porsche AG plunged again on Monday, continuing a disastrous two-year decline. The venerable car company’s latest 8% drop came as it dropped its plans for a proposed battery-powered luxury SUV and said it was refocusing capital investments back to traditional gas-powered cars.

The company says this return to the real world as it actually exists will result in a need to take a $2.1 billion write down and force it and parent company Volkswagen to restate their full-year projections.

Such is the cost of years of virtue signaling about the glorious EV future which governments in Europe and globalist organizations like the UN and WEF have been trying to force on the world over the last decade. Now, with EV sales tanking all over the continent, European carmakers like Porsche, VW, Volvo, Renault, and Jaguar face economic ruin unless they migrate back to reality.

David Blackmon

Sep 23, 2025

David Blackmon is an energy-related public policy analyst/consultant based in Mansfield, TX. David  enjoyed a 40-year career in the oil and gas industry, the last 23 years of which were spent in the public policy arena, managing regulatory and legislative issues for various companies. During this time, David led numerous industry-wide efforts to address a variety of issues at the local, state and federal level, and from April 2010 through June 2012, he served as the Texas State Lead for America’s Natural Gas Alliance. David also maintains a growing media communications practice, and is a frequent guest on television, radio and podcasts

So a totally unbiased reviewer 🤣

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2025/company/porsche-realignment-product-strategy-40594.html

Porsche, are not a run of the mill car manufacture, that the general public are buying on a daily basis (only in their dreams). You are looking at £60K for the cheapest. 
Which hardly fit's the EV marketplace with people moaning about paying £30K for a EV 

seatbeltnoob

WellKnownSid said:

seatbeltnoob said:

Ectophile said:

The issue of EV batteries failing is massively over-hyped by people who want to stop EVs.

They very rarely catch fire.  It does happen sometimes, but nowhere near as often as petrol or diesel cars catching fire. When the Luton airport multi-storey car park burned down, the haters immediately said it must have been an EV.  It wasn't - it was a diesel Range Rover.

Unless you own an early Nissan Leaf, the batteries last for many years with only moderate degradation. The early Leaf had only passive cooling for the battery pack and coulk cook the batteries on a hot day.  The other manufacturers used active cooling.  Most EVs will fall apart from rust before the battery packs fail.

As battery packs get larger, they need charging less often, which will also increase the battery life.  If you have a car with a 200 mile (real world) range, and you use it for shopping and taking the kids to school, it may only need charging once a week or less.

!!!!!!. I'm a techie. Id love nothing more than to have an EV that works and lasts longer than an ICE. I work on phones, laptops refurbishment and I know the batteries on those lasts 3 years tops before you end up with degraded performance that require them to be changed out. Fine to use if you're always using them near power point, not much good if you are actually on the move a lot. EVs use battery cooling and heating to regulate temps and last a bit longer. They probably limit charges above 80% and give a "false empty" at 20% to extend the life. nevertheless the curent lithium cell tech means at some stage they battery will need to be taken out and changed.

When that happens it's almost certain the car would rather be scrapped - battery taken apart to salved the good cells to use as a power wall or something. Especially since ex lease EVs are so cheap - which EV owner is going to keep their old EV on the road replacing the packs? 

There is hope for EVs if solid state batteries become economically viable. They charge faster and last a lot longer but they're currently just something in lab tests right now. 

Yes, yes, three years tops.  But that's based upon a phone being charged every day.  With no active cooling.  Charging to the very top limit and discharging to the lowest point just to get every electron out of a small device.

Yes, as per your example - a worst-case 1,000 full cycles for NMC batteries like in the Zoe, it's 3,000 for LFP batteries by the way (e.g. short range MG4) - and you'll likely want to change the battery.

1,000 full cycles in a Zoe is around 220,000 miles.
3,000 full cycles in an MG4 is around 550,000 miles.

those charge cycle durability is as useful as car maker claimed mileage figures. 

WellKnownSid

seatbeltnoob said:

WellKnownSid said:

seatbeltnoob said:

Ectophile said:

The issue of EV batteries failing is massively over-hyped by people who want to stop EVs.

They very rarely catch fire.  It does happen sometimes, but nowhere near as often as petrol or diesel cars catching fire. When the Luton airport multi-storey car park burned down, the haters immediately said it must have been an EV.  It wasn't - it was a diesel Range Rover.

Unless you own an early Nissan Leaf, the batteries last for many years with only moderate degradation. The early Leaf had only passive cooling for the battery pack and coulk cook the batteries on a hot day.  The other manufacturers used active cooling.  Most EVs will fall apart from rust before the battery packs fail.

As battery packs get larger, they need charging less often, which will also increase the battery life.  If you have a car with a 200 mile (real world) range, and you use it for shopping and taking the kids to school, it may only need charging once a week or less.

!!!!!!. I'm a techie. Id love nothing more than to have an EV that works and lasts longer than an ICE. I work on phones, laptops refurbishment and I know the batteries on those lasts 3 years tops before you end up with degraded performance that require them to be changed out. Fine to use if you're always using them near power point, not much good if you are actually on the move a lot. EVs use battery cooling and heating to regulate temps and last a bit longer. They probably limit charges above 80% and give a "false empty" at 20% to extend the life. nevertheless the curent lithium cell tech means at some stage they battery will need to be taken out and changed.

When that happens it's almost certain the car would rather be scrapped - battery taken apart to salved the good cells to use as a power wall or something. Especially since ex lease EVs are so cheap - which EV owner is going to keep their old EV on the road replacing the packs? 

There is hope for EVs if solid state batteries become economically viable. They charge faster and last a lot longer but they're currently just something in lab tests right now. 

Yes, yes, three years tops.  But that's based upon a phone being charged every day.  With no active cooling.  Charging to the very top limit and discharging to the lowest point just to get every electron out of a small device.

Yes, as per your example - a worst-case 1,000 full cycles for NMC batteries like in the Zoe, it's 3,000 for LFP batteries by the way (e.g. short range MG4) - and you'll likely want to change the battery.

1,000 full cycles in a Zoe is around 220,000 miles.
3,000 full cycles in an MG4 is around 550,000 miles.

whose doing full cycles? whose waiitng to 20% to do a full charge? the car is going on the charge every day no matter how little its driven. 

We must be doing it wrong.  We only do 9,000 miles a year so plug in every week or two?  It'll take more than 20 years to do 1,000 cycles...