Are new cars really as bad as they say?

Arunmor

facade said:

No.

EVs are terrible- they set on fire all the time

Going to get more expensive if this trend continues.  Allianz has Warned that EV Fire Risks at Sea ‘Not Under Control’

facade

seatbeltnoob said:

They depreciate like a ton because their maintenance costs are factored in. Just like toyota hybrids are so expensive for their age and mileage because they're reliable - they have a premium because it's going to cost the owner less than other cars to keep on the road. The battery replacement is a maintance cost on EV, its just a big cost that comes after 7-10 years of ownership. If theyre so dependable, reliable and cheap to service. They will be holding their value high and owners who buy them from new; will hold onto them and won't pawn them off on the cheap taking massive depreciation hit. The drop in prices reflect the fact that first owners dont want them any more and 2nd hand buyers dont want to touch them either.

The deprecation is a sign that all is not good with EVs. 

The big cost is the battery - which is often inttegrated in the floorpan of tesla cars - i dont know if the major car brands do this too. It is very expensive to replace the cells when they reach serious issues. People will scrap the cars by then. People run into engine issues with ICE cars. Nobody will pay £15,000 for a new engine and gearbox on their 2010 BMW (some might take a chance on a salvaged engine). With EV cars, that is the equation, reaches 10-15 year mark. You alwost definately need to fork out £15K on new cells. 

The trouble is EV cells are constantly evolving and improving. The EV maker probably wont make those same cells in 15 years time. So its not certain if it would be possible to replace the batteries on a 15 year old EV. 

As I see it the main reason for the huge depreciation of EVs is that they are simply massively, massively, massively overpriced to start with- just compare the prices of EVs in China (where they are made) to the UK (where they are bought).

Then we have low demand for second hand ones, caused by fear of expensive repairs, fire etc. range anxiety and being unable to charge at home.

If you are paying public charger prices for electricity, you might as well run a G-wagen or something, if you get a 2018 one the tax is the same as an EV and they do 20MPG!

People don't hang onto new ones as they are leased or PCP so they have to go back- people just don't pay £30K for a 20K car with their own money

jimjames

seatbeltnoob said:

I drive a 23 year old VW golf, wife drives a 17 year old corsa. 

MOTs are getting a bit pricey for us, each year spend about £250-£300 getting it through the MOT. 

If £250-300 is pricey for you just wait till you get a new car and have to factor in 10x that in depreciation as well as more expensive service costs! I'd say £300 was a bargain to keep a car on the road each year with zero capital or monthly costs

Goudy

facade said:

seatbeltnoob said:

They depreciate like a ton because their maintenance costs are factored in. Just like toyota hybrids are so expensive for their age and mileage because they're reliable - they have a premium because it's going to cost the owner less than other cars to keep on the road. The battery replacement is a maintance cost on EV, its just a big cost that comes after 7-10 years of ownership. If theyre so dependable, reliable and cheap to service. They will be holding their value high and owners who buy them from new; will hold onto them and won't pawn them off on the cheap taking massive depreciation hit. The drop in prices reflect the fact that first owners dont want them any more and 2nd hand buyers dont want to touch them either.

The deprecation is a sign that all is not good with EVs. 

The big cost is the battery - which is often inttegrated in the floorpan of tesla cars - i dont know if the major car brands do this too. It is very expensive to replace the cells when they reach serious issues. People will scrap the cars by then. People run into engine issues with ICE cars. Nobody will pay £15,000 for a new engine and gearbox on their 2010 BMW (some might take a chance on a salvaged engine). With EV cars, that is the equation, reaches 10-15 year mark. You alwost definately need to fork out £15K on new cells. 

The trouble is EV cells are constantly evolving and improving. The EV maker probably wont make those same cells in 15 years time. So its not certain if it would be possible to replace the batteries on a 15 year old EV. 

As I see it the main reason for the huge depreciation of EVs is that they are simply massively, massively, massively overpriced to start with- just compare the prices of EVs in China (where they are made) to the UK (where they are bought).

Then we have low demand for second hand ones, caused by fear of expensive repairs, fire etc. range anxiety and being unable to charge at home.

If you are paying public charger prices for electricity, you might as well run a G-wagen or something, if you get a 2018 one the tax is the same as an EV and they do 20MPG!

People don't hang onto new ones as they are leased or PCP so they have to go back- people just don't pay £30K for a 20K car with their own money

Even if they are leased or on PCP, the customer will "pay" for the depreciation.

So on a PCP the difference between the invoice and GFV (plus all the interest) is what the monthly payments are based on.
This means you'll pay more in monthly payments for a car with high depreciation, as the difference between invoice and GFV is larger than one with lower depreciation.

As for lease, the lease payments will be worked out on the difference in values between the start and end of the lease. The bigger the difference, the more you will pay.

vacheron

facade said:

seatbeltnoob said:

They depreciate like a ton because their maintenance costs are factored in. Just like toyota hybrids are so expensive for their age and mileage because they're reliable - they have a premium because it's going to cost the owner less than other cars to keep on the road. The battery replacement is a maintance cost on EV, its just a big cost that comes after 7-10 years of ownership. If theyre so dependable, reliable and cheap to service. They will be holding their value high and owners who buy them from new; will hold onto them and won't pawn them off on the cheap taking massive depreciation hit. The drop in prices reflect the fact that first owners dont want them any more and 2nd hand buyers dont want to touch them either.

The deprecation is a sign that all is not good with EVs. 

The big cost is the battery - which is often inttegrated in the floorpan of tesla cars - i dont know if the major car brands do this too. It is very expensive to replace the cells when they reach serious issues. People will scrap the cars by then. People run into engine issues with ICE cars. Nobody will pay £15,000 for a new engine and gearbox on their 2010 BMW (some might take a chance on a salvaged engine). With EV cars, that is the equation, reaches 10-15 year mark. You alwost definately need to fork out £15K on new cells. 

The trouble is EV cells are constantly evolving and improving. The EV maker probably wont make those same cells in 15 years time. So its not certain if it would be possible to replace the batteries on a 15 year old EV. 

As I see it the main reason for the huge depreciation of EVs is that they are simply massively, massively, massively overpriced to start with- just compare the prices of EVs in China (where they are made) to the UK (where they are bought).

Then we have low demand for second hand ones, caused by fear of expensive repairs, fire etc. range anxiety and being unable to charge at home.

If you are paying public charger prices for electricity, you might as well run a G-wagen or something, if you get a 2018 one the tax is the same as an EV and they do 20MPG!

People don't hang onto new ones as they are leased or PCP so they have to go back- people just don't pay £30K for a 20K car with their own money

New prices for run of the mill EV's really are ridiculous.

Take a Nissan Qashqai. A fairly unremarkable workhorse car, which could be bought new in 2015 for £17,170 for the base model.

Based on the intervening 10 years of UK inflation, today's model should now cost £23,925, however their base model all electric (the e-POWER Acenta Premium) is £34,860… 50% higher.

Of course, salaries have only gone up by inflation, (if that). So that extra 50% has to be found from somewhere.... so lets have finance options to convince the buyer that they are "affordable" as it is "just £383 per month".. for 50 MONTHS!

Then despite having paid £24,000, you still need to find the final balloon payment of £16,170 to actually own your 4 year old Nissan. (This being just £1,000 less than the entire base model Qashqai would have cost new 10 years ago).

As 3 year old hybrid Nissans are selling for almost exactly the same amount as the balloon payment, (which includes the dealer markup), this means that you have paid 4 entire years worth of payments and a £5000 deposit on literally nothing but depreciation.

I think I'll take the £500 per year of repair work for the MOT thanks. 

WellKnownSid

vacheron said:

facade said:

seatbeltnoob said:

They depreciate like a ton because their maintenance costs are factored in. Just like toyota hybrids are so expensive for their age and mileage because they're reliable - they have a premium because it's going to cost the owner less than other cars to keep on the road. The battery replacement is a maintance cost on EV, its just a big cost that comes after 7-10 years of ownership. If theyre so dependable, reliable and cheap to service. They will be holding their value high and owners who buy them from new; will hold onto them and won't pawn them off on the cheap taking massive depreciation hit. The drop in prices reflect the fact that first owners dont want them any more and 2nd hand buyers dont want to touch them either.

The deprecation is a sign that all is not good with EVs. 

The big cost is the battery - which is often inttegrated in the floorpan of tesla cars - i dont know if the major car brands do this too. It is very expensive to replace the cells when they reach serious issues. People will scrap the cars by then. People run into engine issues with ICE cars. Nobody will pay £15,000 for a new engine and gearbox on their 2010 BMW (some might take a chance on a salvaged engine). With EV cars, that is the equation, reaches 10-15 year mark. You alwost definately need to fork out £15K on new cells. 

The trouble is EV cells are constantly evolving and improving. The EV maker probably wont make those same cells in 15 years time. So its not certain if it would be possible to replace the batteries on a 15 year old EV. 

As I see it the main reason for the huge depreciation of EVs is that they are simply massively, massively, massively overpriced to start with- just compare the prices of EVs in China (where they are made) to the UK (where they are bought).

Then we have low demand for second hand ones, caused by fear of expensive repairs, fire etc. range anxiety and being unable to charge at home.

If you are paying public charger prices for electricity, you might as well run a G-wagen or something, if you get a 2018 one the tax is the same as an EV and they do 20MPG!

People don't hang onto new ones as they are leased or PCP so they have to go back- people just don't pay £30K for a 20K car with their own money

...

Based on the intervening 10 years of UK inflation, today's model should now cost £23,925, however their base model all electric (the e-POWER Acenta Premium) is £34,860… 50% higher.

...

e-POWER is a series hybrid not an EV.  It runs entirely on petrol.

Mildly_Miffed

vacheron said:

As 3 year old hybrid Nissans are selling for almost exactly the same amount as the balloon payment, (which includes the dealer markup), this means that you have paid 4 entire years worth of payments and a £5000 deposit on literally nothing but depreciation.

That's exactly how PCPs are designed to work, and always have been.

vacheron

WellKnownSid said:

vacheron said:

facade said:

seatbeltnoob said:

They depreciate like a ton because their maintenance costs are factored in. Just like toyota hybrids are so expensive for their age and mileage because they're reliable - they have a premium because it's going to cost the owner less than other cars to keep on the road. The battery replacement is a maintance cost on EV, its just a big cost that comes after 7-10 years of ownership. If theyre so dependable, reliable and cheap to service. They will be holding their value high and owners who buy them from new; will hold onto them and won't pawn them off on the cheap taking massive depreciation hit. The drop in prices reflect the fact that first owners dont want them any more and 2nd hand buyers dont want to touch them either.

The deprecation is a sign that all is not good with EVs. 

The big cost is the battery - which is often inttegrated in the floorpan of tesla cars - i dont know if the major car brands do this too. It is very expensive to replace the cells when they reach serious issues. People will scrap the cars by then. People run into engine issues with ICE cars. Nobody will pay £15,000 for a new engine and gearbox on their 2010 BMW (some might take a chance on a salvaged engine). With EV cars, that is the equation, reaches 10-15 year mark. You alwost definately need to fork out £15K on new cells. 

The trouble is EV cells are constantly evolving and improving. The EV maker probably wont make those same cells in 15 years time. So its not certain if it would be possible to replace the batteries on a 15 year old EV. 

As I see it the main reason for the huge depreciation of EVs is that they are simply massively, massively, massively overpriced to start with- just compare the prices of EVs in China (where they are made) to the UK (where they are bought).

Then we have low demand for second hand ones, caused by fear of expensive repairs, fire etc. range anxiety and being unable to charge at home.

If you are paying public charger prices for electricity, you might as well run a G-wagen or something, if you get a 2018 one the tax is the same as an EV and they do 20MPG!

People don't hang onto new ones as they are leased or PCP so they have to go back- people just don't pay £30K for a 20K car with their own money

...

Based on the intervening 10 years of UK inflation, today's model should now cost £23,925, however their base model all electric (the e-POWER Acenta Premium) is £34,860… 50% higher.

...

e-POWER is a series hybrid not an EV.  It runs entirely on petrol. 

Apologies. My bad. So the e-POWER is basically a Prius but 15 years late to the party! 
I should really have used the Leaf as an EV with both new and old sales data as the price drops are comparable to my somewhat flawed example!

If anything a petrol Qashqai with a tiny assistive battery for £35K makes the OP's original question about current pricing/value feel even worse, all the cons (complexity) of an electric car, but few (if any) of the supposedly green credentials.   

vacheron

Mildly_Miffed said:

vacheron said:

As 3 year old hybrid Nissans are selling for almost exactly the same amount as the balloon payment, (which includes the dealer markup), this means that you have paid 4 entire years worth of payments and a £5000 deposit on literally nothing but depreciation.

That's exactly how PCPs are designed to work, and always have been.

Yes, but when a car is 50% more expensive than common sense says it should be, so are the respective PCP costs when taken on the finance. The disproportionally high RRP will also send more people down this path because they can't really afford one, yet their sense of entitlement says they deserve one!

facade

Goudy said:

facade said:

seatbeltnoob said:

They depreciate like a ton because their maintenance costs are factored in. Just like toyota hybrids are so expensive for their age and mileage because they're reliable - they have a premium because it's going to cost the owner less than other cars to keep on the road. The battery replacement is a maintance cost on EV, its just a big cost that comes after 7-10 years of ownership. If theyre so dependable, reliable and cheap to service. They will be holding their value high and owners who buy them from new; will hold onto them and won't pawn them off on the cheap taking massive depreciation hit. The drop in prices reflect the fact that first owners dont want them any more and 2nd hand buyers dont want to touch them either.

The deprecation is a sign that all is not good with EVs. 

The big cost is the battery - which is often inttegrated in the floorpan of tesla cars - i dont know if the major car brands do this too. It is very expensive to replace the cells when they reach serious issues. People will scrap the cars by then. People run into engine issues with ICE cars. Nobody will pay £15,000 for a new engine and gearbox on their 2010 BMW (some might take a chance on a salvaged engine). With EV cars, that is the equation, reaches 10-15 year mark. You alwost definately need to fork out £15K on new cells. 

The trouble is EV cells are constantly evolving and improving. The EV maker probably wont make those same cells in 15 years time. So its not certain if it would be possible to replace the batteries on a 15 year old EV. 

As I see it the main reason for the huge depreciation of EVs is that they are simply massively, massively, massively overpriced to start with- just compare the prices of EVs in China (where they are made) to the UK (where they are bought).

Then we have low demand for second hand ones, caused by fear of expensive repairs, fire etc. range anxiety and being unable to charge at home.

If you are paying public charger prices for electricity, you might as well run a G-wagen or something, if you get a 2018 one the tax is the same as an EV and they do 20MPG!

People don't hang onto new ones as they are leased or PCP so they have to go back- people just don't pay £30K for a 20K car with their own money

Even if they are leased or on PCP, the customer will "pay" for the depreciation.

So on a PCP the difference between the invoice and GFV (plus all the interest) is what the monthly payments are based on.
This means you'll pay more in monthly payments for a car with high depreciation, as the difference between invoice and GFV is larger than one with lower depreciation.

As for lease, the lease payments will be worked out on the difference in values between the start and end of the lease. The bigger the difference, the more you will pay.

I understand that, otherwise the poor finance companies would go bust. They clearly don't so they are at least getting their money back. (Maybe not the wheelbarrows full of gold that they expect, hence their crying to the Government about some sort of tax payer subsidy, but clearly enough or they wouldn't touch them)

EVs are massively, massively, massively overpriced.

The finance companies clearly don't pay anywhere near these massive overprices when they buy them in for lease/pcp. So when they "depreciate" massively initially, the "depreciation" is all on paper, and the values are actually realistic.

My £30K (list price) EV cost me nearly £13,000 at 2.5 years old. Realistically, it should have been £20K new, which makes the £13K I paid about right- it would have been worth £10-11K.