Here I go again ….

mmmmikey

Rosie1001 said:

mmmmikey said:

Phones4Chris said:

mmmmikey said:

Rosie1001 said:

mmmmikey said:

Rosie1001 said:

mmmmikey said:

Rosie1001 said:

 I’d prefer octopus purely because of their customer service 

I can’t keep doing what I am doing , 

im starting a new job in two weeks and that will take up all my days in the week , I can’t be bothered to fight another energy supplier 

Hi - at the risk of being a profit of doom I'd put money on you going through this experience for a number of years until you bite the bullet and rep!ace your antique, wasteful heating system with something more appropriate to modern times - or at the very least update the controls and/or use supplementary heaters in the evening.

The heaters themselves may only be 20 or 30 years old but the technology dates back 50 or 60 years. Things have moved on somewhat since then. By modern standards your heaters are crappier than a crap thing having a crap day. That's why the industry is moving away from them and you are finding life so difficult.

Move with the times or continue to swim against the tide until it eventually gets so strong it overwhelms you - the choice is yours......

There is many people who are in my situation and I don’t think your advice is helpful 

where do you propose the money comes from doing all this ???

my husband is in bad  health and he’s 71 this year so definitely won’t be working 

My wages are the main income , and I can’t just magically find money to do what would be a major upgrade 

Hi, the gap here is that I'm describing how the situation as it actually is today, whereas others are overlaying that with how they (often perfectly reasonably) feel it could and/or should be.

The situation today is that Economy 10 is being discontinued by a number of suppliers, and where it is available customer services agents seem to be poorly trained (and even in the best of times customer service isn't always what it should be). Is it acceptable that customer services you have experienced is so poor - no of course not! Is it poor - well, you decide... 

Absolutely right and appropriate that you should complain about it, but I suspect the reality is that it's not likely to get much better any time soon as energy suppliers are likely to focus their attention on training their agents on technologies of the future (like heat pumps, solar panels and batteries) rather than metering systems of the past.

The industry generally is moving away from the type of system you have. There is a very real risk that you get over the current hurdle with EDF only to come up against a similar hurdle with your next supplier, which is what I mean when I say you are swimming against the tide. That's not intended to be a judgement, just a realistic description of where things are at today. The industry is pulling in one direction and you are trying to pull them in another. If you successfully get the industry to change direction (by complaing to your MP and so on) you may get them to change. But that's a fairly big "if" IMHO.

The money to "do all this" potentially comes from the savings you make by switching to a less wasteful heating system and taking advantage of the better pricing that will become available to you if you do. How you get there depends on your financial circumstances, but suffice to say there are lots of options and possibilities.

Sorry but you are wrong , what options and possibilities do I have ??

I don’t do debt , and I certainly don’t have savings to pull out to pull out to do this work 

suppliers could support off peak tariffs more for heating , they are pushing EV tariffs which are the same really , both time of use ! 

Wasteful heating , In your opinion ! 

The options and possibilities were outlined to you at the beginning of your previous thread on this subject. If that is something you would like to follow up on that's probably a good place to start.

I can't comment on how best to pay for it without knwoing your circumstances.

Yes, I agree, there's absolutely no reason I can think of why suppliers couldn't do this if they wanted to. But the plain simple fact, however unpalatable, is that is not what they are currently doing (with the exception of Octopus Snug and possibly others?). I'm describing how it is, you're describing how it could/should be.

The waste comes from the heat that leaks out during the day, the poor output controls and limitations around adjusting the input load through the seasons. Not just my opinion - all fairly well documented by numerous owners of old-style storage heaters over many years.

Please, please, please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong in making a stand on this. What I'm saying is that making that stand is likely to continue to be hard work, and if the problem you want to solve is having a nice warm house without it costing a fortune and constant hassle you do have the option of changing tack and finding a different way to solve that problem. Not necessarily any easier in the short term but a solution that moves your heating system to the future rather than continually trying to pull the industry back to the past could well be a better option in the long term.

You really do have choices.

A lot of your recent posts here are not helpful! Your assumption that everyone is in a position to upgrade their heaters, personally I find offensive.
There is no "wasted" heat as such unless you have to start opening windows/doors etc because it's got too hot. Of course controlling older storage heaters is a bit of a problem, BUT with the right tariff(s) it should be less so. After all, as I said earlier E10 is just another TOU tariff. IMHO suppliers like EDF are getting rid of them as they think they can get away with charging more on other tariffs hoping people will use more daytime peak rates!
In my previous post I also suggested this -
"there's this you could "try" using -
 https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/consultation/radio-teleswitch-service-rts-electricity-supply-licence-changes
and quote the following at them from it, it says  -
"The new licence conditions will make sure consumers are treated fairly ...."
"the licensee must take all reasonable steps to provide a tariff that leaves the consumer  ‘no worse off’ than their existing arrangement ........"
Add your comment as follows - "Well that might have been the case when you did upgrade the meter, BUT this is NOW No longer the case because you say you've withdrawn the E10 tariff. I can't be the only consumer affected.
E10 is only another TOU Tariff, so what's the problem when one has a Smart Meter? Seems like a complaint to OFGEM may be needed as well."

As is par for the course, OFGEM are a totally useless regulator ignoring the many people who are not in a position to "Upgrade" their heating systems with modern technology (even with grants, and of course those with homes not suited to some of that technology).
Unless people start complaining to OFGEM that many suppliers are not offering suitable TOU tariffs (which Smart Meters are of course able to do) or at a reasonable price, then things aren't likely to change much. Older storage heating is not the only system that can benefit from periods of daytime off-peak.

@Rosie1001 Two points
Don't worry about the ALCS timings, whoever the supplier, if moving to an E7 tariff, they will get set to the options for that region, which for you maybe 7hrs overnight.
You mention 2000kWh daytime usage. Bear in mind that may increase a bit on E7 unless you can shift usage that you used during the afternoon boost to the overnight off-peak. 
Remember. you need to look at the peak and off-peak unit rates (as well as SCs) and do your own calculations when comparing any available E10 with E7 options and suppliers.

Hi @Phones4Chris why do you think I've assumed that everyone is in the position to upgrade their heating system? I certainly don't believe that and I don't think I've said it either?

I think you make a number of perfectly reasonable points.

The point I'm trying to make is that no matter how strongly you feel about it, the industry is moving away from and not currently doing a good job of supporting these older complex metering arrangements (like E10 and whatever Rosie is/was on). I think you'd agree that's where we're at and it's what you're objecting to? Like you (I think?) I can't see any technical reason for that, so my assumption is that the reasons are either commercial, political or strategic. But who knows - whatever the reason is, good or bad, that's where we're at.

Which leaves customers with a choice between battling with their supplier and complaining to Ofgem etc. in order to make the industry support the transition from these older metering systems better (which is what you are advocating, I'm describing as "swimming against the tide" and Rosie is finding so tiresome). Or looking at the problem in a different way and coming at it from the point of view of "how do I stay warm in the evenings in a world where the only well supported legacy TOU tariff is Economy 7". There are a number of options here, one of which is a large scale and expensive upgrade of your entire heating system which as you point out not everyone is in a position to do (even if it would save money in the long run). Other options were touched upon in Rosie's previous thread but not pursued because Rosie's choice was to persevere with sorting things out with EDF.

I'm just flagging up the risk that Rosie could put an awful lot of time and effort into finding a tariff and changing suppliers only to find herself back where she started if that supplier follows the direction of the industry and ceases the tariff. Time will tell if flagging up this risk proves helpful or not.

One way or the other I hope that Rosie manages to find a solution that she finds satisfactory soon and can put this behind her and move on.

Sorry but it wasn’t my choice to stay and battle on with Edf as you say 

I am stuck with them as they made a mess of my meter installation back in march ,they kept telling me it was all correctly done on the database 

only when I tried to move supplies I realised I could not , as according to the database I still had my RTS meter , even EDF themselves asked me for photos of the new meter several times !!!

then I find out that my rts meter is still related to my new meter , so no supplier will touch me until this is sorted 

so again , you misunderstood that I’m trying to get E10 and just battling Edf to bend to my will 

I will take E7 if I need to , just not with Edf , but unfortunately I am stuck with them for now !!!! 

Yes it had took time and effort , because EDF are not doing what they  should ! 

I was given a new tariff , as it happens E10 on July 1st 

then I was told I was misinformed, I even had to send in my email I got with my welcome to your new tariff and E10 pricing and times 

then I was told , they no longer offer E10 at all 

so yes, it’s gone on 33 pages or whatever , but you obviously have not read the back story !!!!!!

And as for the industry moving away from these tariffs , what do you think EV tariffs are , they exactly the same except you are charging a car and not a box of bricks !!!!! 

That's good to hear  If you're willing to accept E7 and not have an afternoon boost then that should give you a reasonable solution for the forseeable future as AFAIK there are no plans to discontunue E7. It sounds like "all" you need to do is beat the living daylight out of EDF and that should eventually get sorted. You'll then be able to shop around and/or contune to campaign for a better tariff to suit your needs.

The tariffs the industry is moving away from are the so-called legacy TOU tariffs (like Economy 10, THTC and whatever you were previously on) and there are various reports throughout the forum of customers receiving letters telling them their tariff is ending. The exception to this is E7- and possibly others? 

These legacy tariffs use a combination of so-called complex-metering and ALCS mainly to switch storage and water heaters on and off. The EV tariffs are so-called smart tariffs and rely on something other than ALCS to switch things on and off. So it's nuanced (read over-complicated?) - it's not all TOU tariffs that the industry is moving away from, it's just the more complex legacy ones (like E10 and so on). As @Phones4Chris and others have pointed out, this isn't due to a limitation of the smart meters - if they can do E7 they can do E10 etc. Hence my assumption that the reason may be commercial, political or strategic. Octopus Snug is different in that it uses the ALCS in conjunction with a smart meter tariff and is also dynamic (the timings change). Time will tell if that proves to be successful and/or if other suppliers follow suit. 

Rosie1001

Thank you , that’s helpful 

I’m in bed around 8 pm anyway as up at 5 am except weekends , I like watching tv in my room plus I’ve got electric blanket as well 

my rooms are very large with high ceilings as well 

so I might be ok on E7 …. I won’t know until I try it 

think I’m going to go with octopus E7 as soon as I can If I can’t get E10 with ovo 

Ildhund

mmmmikey said:
The tariffs the industry is moving away from are the so-called legacy TOU tariffs (like Economy 10, THTC and whatever you were previously on) ...
[Some] tariffs are so-called smart tariffs and rely on something other than ALCS to switch things on and off.  

It seems that there is movement in several different directions. My own supplier - OVO - was quick to introduce a new tariff along with smart metering. It's called Smart Economy 9 and it provides three three-hour offpeak slots. I've no idea of the details of it, but I assume it uses ALCS to control heating circuits. As regards Economy 10, OVO realized early on that some of its customers on complex metering arrangements would need a scheme more adaptable than Economy 7. It took them years to develop a version of E10 to be used on smart meters replacing THTC systems in Scotland and similar ones elsewhere, and it's just a year since deployment started in earnest. So while some bits of industry may be moving away from E10 as you say, others understand its value for customers like Rosie. There are some technical hardware hurdles to switching to these tariffs, so it may not be possible for everyone who's interested. 

Just because some suppliers are pursuing a particular path, it's probably not completely accurate to claim that the whole industry is doing so.

vic_sf49

If I were you Rosie, I'd switch to Octopus, on an(y) E7 fix, as they usually have £0 exit fees (do double check first, but it's clearly stated.) 

That way, you can check your meter/timing/billing is working as expected, before the weather starts getting colder.

Once you know that all works, stay put, or start looking for a better deal.

For clarity, I like Octopus. I refuse to switch supplier right now, even though I might save a few quid, as I like correct billing, an app that shows useful data, and allows easy adjustments to your direct debit, and CS reps that do as you ask (to switch tariffs etc). 

Rosie1001

That’s the plan , either octopus or ovo 

But , and it’s a big but I can’t do anything until EDF sort out my meter issues and remove the related Mpan on the national database 

So unfortunately I am stuck for now 

Rosie1001

Just sent this to EDF 

they are not consistent in what they are offering their customers 

I am now on a mission to make sure this is addressed properly as it’s a disgrace 

even when I leave them , hopefully in next week or so , I’m not letting this go 

all the older people in this situation who do not have people to help them must be lost in a haze of confusion .. and winter will be here soon , our seniors of this country deserve better than how EDF are treating them ! 

Petitepea

Rosie1001 said:

Just sent this to EDF 

they are not consistent in what they are offering their customers 

I am now on a mission to make sure this is addressed properly as it’s a disgrace 

even when I leave them , hopefully in next week or so , I’m not letting this go 

all the older people in this situation who do not have people to help them must be lost in a haze of confusion .. and winter will be here soon , our seniors of this country deserve better than how EDF are treating them ! 

Morning Rosie1001
I agree EDF have not been consistent in what they have been telling those who were affected by the RTS switch off, as i have also been told they no longer offer E7/dual tariff rates which i mentioned the other day in which I knew wasn't correct by looking at their tariff information labels online etc.

I am also thinking about raising a complaint in relation to those in my situation whereby they didn't have an RTS meter but EDF included those who have dual rate meters under the RTS switch off and retirement of legacy tariffs letter we all received.

The letter I received stated "we're simplifying our range of tariffs by retiring older ones that were designed for a very different energy system...but to access them, you'll need a smart meter"; an option is to consider a smart meter "a smart meter can be configured to give you access to cheaper off peak rates, it's what we call Economy 7", the problems I have with this are;
1- it feels like EDF are trying to blackmail those with meters who will keep on working after the RTS switch off into getting a smart meter, by stating you can only access these tariffs via a smart meter when,
2- Smart meters are not compulsory / legally obliged,
3- yet in my case as stated in the letter i received, it said my existing terms & conditions continued to apply but I was moved on to a single rate tariff despite EDF having tariffs available for dual rate meters, my old tariff was brought inline with their E7 prices years ago, so EDF could have defaulted my account onto a dual rate instead of the single rate which increases my annual bills by around £190 and ofgem have stated that customers who are affected by the RTS switch off must be no worse off.
4- I am not 100% sure on this so I may be wrong, but as in my case under 22d of the license supply condition i think EDF may have to offer an equivalent or cheaper evergreen tariff when dead tariffs end? (if anyone can clarify please).
4- EDF knew the RTS switch off was coming therefore EDF could have offered a smart meter tariff solely for these customers affected in order to make sure that they were not worse off due to the loss of heating times or additional costings incurred as per ofgem have stated.

I understand EDF can retire tariffs etc & I have no issue with this but it is the way it has been handled and when customers have raised issues it has been impossible to get someone at senior level to look into this and yet it seems we are all being told multiple things.

I think off the back of this EDF will lose a lot of their existing TOU customers as they have no other better TOU tariffs to offer at the moment other than the bog standard Economy 7, i will also be looking to move to another supplier who can offer the multi rate tariffs for various times of the day.

QrizB

Petitepea said:

2- Smart meters are not compulsory / legally obliged,

In practice, though, smart meters are the only option.

Suppliers are obliged by Ofgem to replace end-of-life meters, which includes all RTS meters. Suppliers are also obliged by Ofgem to fit a smart meter whenever it's practicable to do so (and are fined if they don't fit enough of them). And you, as a customer, are obliged to let your supplier fit metering equipment.

So, if you want anything other than a flat-rate tariff, you're going to have to accept a smart meter. And eventually you'll get a smart meter even on a flat tariff.

Petitepea said:

I think off the back of this EDF will lose a lot of their existing TOU customers as they have no other better TOU tariffs to offer at the moment other than the bog standard Economy 7, i will also be looking to move to another supplier who can offer the multi rate tariffs for various times of the day.

Once you have a smart meter you can switch to whatever supplier you fancy.

Petitepea

QrizB said:

Petitepea said:

2- Smart meters are not compulsory / legally obliged,

In practice, though, smart meters are the only option.

Suppliers are obliged by Ofgem to replace end-of-life meters, which includes all RTS meters. Suppliers are also obliged by Ofgem to fit a smart meter whenever it's practicable to do so (and are fined if they don't fit enough of them). And you, as a customer, are obliged to let your supplier fit metering equipment.

So, if you want anything other than a flat-rate tariff, you're going to have to accept a smart meter. And eventually you'll get a smart meter even on a flat tariff.

Petitepea said:

I think off the back of this EDF will lose a lot of their existing TOU customers as they have no other better TOU tariffs to offer at the moment other than the bog standard Economy 7, i will also be looking to move to another supplier who can offer the multi rate tariffs for various times of the day.

Once you have a smart meter you can switch to whatever supplier you fancy.

I understand smart meters will become the only option.

My issue is that my now 'dead tariff' was charged in line with their E7 pricing until they put myself onto a single rate tariff, i get they can retire tariffs but they should have by 'default' put my account on to the standard variable economy 7 as it is the same prices I was on in relation to my tariff that was retired and my meter isn't RTS or end-of-life so will continue to work accordingly, therefore no smart meter needed atm this is why i stated they are not compulsory in this case.

QrizB

Petitepea said:

My issue is that my now 'dead tariff' was charged in line with their E7 pricing until they put myself onto a single rate tariff, i get they can retire tariffs but they should have by 'default' put my account on to the standard variable economy 7 as it is the same prices I was on in relation to my tariff that was retired and my meter isn't RTS or end-of-life so will continue to work accordingly, therefore no smart meter needed atm this is why i stated they are not compulsory in this case.

Do you have an E7 meter, though?

It sounds as though you don't, you have a meter configured for a different tariff with different switching times that just happened to be charged at the same rate as E7?

If you want E7, you'll need an E7 meter. If that means a meter swap, that'll be a smart meter.